Early (I think) Heavy Duty

spencerdiesel

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Hello all, I’ve acquired a well worn .38-44 Heavy duty and know little about them. I’d really like to take necessary precautions/ repair steps before loading for/ shooting the gun.

The barrel has rotational movement (approx .008” to .010”) with cylinder closed. With cylinder swung open, barrel has approx .020” rotational play. I know the barrel should be tight to the frame in all aspects, I’d like to hear everyone’s opinions on the fix(s). Thanks!
 

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Exactly what do you mean by “barrel has .020” rotational play”? Is it loose in the frame or what? What is the barrel-cylinder gap?
 
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bbl

Does the serial number on the butt match the serial number on barrel? Possibly some time in it's life the barrel was replaced and doesn't time tight.
SWCA 892
 
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If the serial number in the shroud matches the serial numbers on both the butt and the cylinder then you probably have an original gun. The number in the shroud is a little difficult to read. I have seen a lettered first year HD with a serial number in the 35xxx range. Smith and Wesson didn't necessarily ship guns in order, so a letter is really the only way to tell when it was shipped.

I wouldn't shoot it with that barrel rotation. Seems like a qualified gunsmith needs to set the barrel back a turn or two then correct the cylinder/barrel gap.
 
How to fix a loose barrel without a gunsmith

It sounds like the barrel is loose in the frame and can rotate slightly either direction until it is stopped by the barrel pin. That is exactly the reason hand ejectors had the barrel pin, in case the barrel came loose! A lot of you won't understand or agree with this, but instead of having the barrel set back the simplest way to correct this problem is remove the barrel pin and unscrew the barrel completely. Then clean the barrel and frame threads with Loc-tite Klean 'n Prime, Once this is dry apply Green Loc-Tite Sleeve Retainer and screw the barrel back into the frame until it is positioned correctly, then allow the Loc-Tite to cure and re-install the barrel pin. This will be a permanent repair. This is how the factory installed the barrels in Airweight revolvers! Really!! I have removed and re-loc-tited Model 12 barrels this way and it is permanent and as strong as torque fitting the barrel. Removing Model 12 barrels is how I discovered this, the barrels had green Loc-Tite on the threads. Any Loc-Tite that squeezes out between the frame and barrel will not cure as it is an anaerobic resin. This can be easily wiped off once the resin in the barrel threads has completely cured after an hour or so.

Since the barrel is already loose it can be screwed in until properly indexed simply using your hands. You have to be quick because the Green Loc-Tite cures very quickly with the Klean 'n Prime, and you want to get it all the way in before the Loc-Tite begins to cure!

If you don't believe me then ask Roy Jinks about the Airweights. I have done several S&Ws, both Aluminum and steel framed, with loose barrels as I have described above and none of the barrels have ever come loose again!

Loc-Tite Sleeve Retainer is used in Automotive engine work to retain the valve guides in the cylinder heads and often cylinder liner sleeves in diesel engines so it is intended to take the heat and pressure of this application, which is every bit as strenuous as revolver barrels if not more. Retaining a revolver barrel is exactly the same as the originally intended use of this Loc-Tite product except the valve guides and cylinder liners aren't threaded, simply pressed in.

The only thing about this is the Klean 'n Prime and the Loc-Tite Sleeve Retainer are kind of pricey, probably about $50 total these days. Probably $250-$300 cheaper than a gunsmith would charge though. Regardless the gun should not be fired until the loose barrel problem is corrected.

The Loc-Tite Green Sleeve Retainer you want is the High Strength product, either #620 or #640. Brownells sells the #620 for about $18. If they don't have the Klean 'n Prime it can be obtained from many auto parts stores such as NAPA.
 
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While I believe Loctite would work well in that application, to me it would depend on what the gap was after making sure the cylinder had acceptable end shake. If It had acceptable endshake and B/C gap I would do the loctite, if not I would set the barrel back. But, as I have the means to do that it cost me nothing but time. I have nor used Loctite in that application, but have used it to fix several liners in barrels

If you ever need to disassemble something that has Loctite or epoxy a heat gun will do the trick as even the very high heat Loctite breaks down at 500f. Regular "high heat" at about 300f and most epoxies a little below that.

But, your trigger finger is going to blister well before your revolver gets to 300f even if you were wearing unlined leather gloves

I have discovered it sure helps to use heat to remove Remington 660-660-700 barrels even with an action wrench as they use something on the threads
 
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Thank you all for the great responses and knowledge! This evening I’ll check the butt of the frame to see if that SN matches the barrel.

Currently, BC gap w/ out endshake shims installed is .0085”.

I have Loctite 680 on hand (green “bearing mount” as we call it), how does it compare to 620/ 640 for this application?

Also, is removing the barrel pin just a matter of pin punch & a small hammer? Thanks again!
 
Let me suggest removing the pin is just a matter of a cup tip punch lest you flatten/enlarge the end, and create a whole new can of worms-----and quite obviously, "size matters".

Brownells will have the punch you need---and most certainly can tell you the size.

Ralph Tremaine
 
BROWNELLS APEX S&W M&P HEAVY DUTY PIN PUNCH

Is this the correct size for these Heavy duty’s?

Well, for openers, it's not a "cup tip" punch! S&W uses round end pins----which REQUIRE cup tip punches---lest you flatten (and risk enlarging) the head of the pin----which can, and usually will, add to your problems.

As to the correct size, I routinely remove every pin in the gun EXCEPT for the barrel pin in the course of the "Welcome Bath"---and have no idea what the correct size is. Answers to such questions are readily available from the technical assistance folks at Brownells---to be found at the other end of your phone line. On the other hand, I had a complete set of cup tip punches (mostly because I'm a tool junkie), and never had to ask-----just had to try one----and sometimes another. As an aside, most, if not all the punches are available in short and long versions---shorter is more friendly to use---and again, the technical assistance folks should be able to tell you if the short punch is long enough----likely is, but like I said, I've never removed a barrel pin.

Ralph Tremaine

As a belated aside, I've been removing pins from S&W handguns for a looooooooooooooooong time--------and have yet to come across one that required any WHAMMITY-BAMMING with the hammer. Tap-tap-tap is the name of the game---every now and then TAP-TAP-TAP.
 
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I was also going to suggest the use of Loctite on the barrel threads, but it was, and still is to some extent, unclear as to what the problem is. The B-C gap seems a little excessive. I have a HD which also has an excessive gap, about 0.010” but it shoots OK. Shimming does not really help but I do not want to get into setting back the barrel.
 
The barrel pin on S&W revolvers is .050. You need a short cupped one to start it and a long one to finish driving it out. cupped punches are expensive. I turn the ends of nail set punches down

I remove the cylinder, then sit the gun on hockey pucks, one of which has a shallow round groove for the barrel frame junction. There is also a hole for the pin to move into. With 3 pucks you can set even a long tube N frame up solid with no worries about finish damage. One puck has several holes I use to tap out grip pins, trigger and hammer pins etc.

On an older gun I would soak it in penetrating oil for a while as the pins can be hard to start. I had a 5 screw HP someone had fooled with and try as I might I could not get the barrel pin to budge. I finally set it up in my mill and used a tiny carbide end mill to remove it going 1/2 way from both sides of the frame. I then reamed the holes to 1/16" and replaced pins with 1/16" pins. 1/16" is .0625 vs the stock .050 pin. A hard to notice difference that is much stiffer and easier to come by than a .050 pin. a #55 drill is .0520 a #56 is .465 and a 3/64 is .469. a metric 1.25 is .0492 and a 1.30 is .0512

You can decrease a the end of a drill bit with a drill and a diamond sharpening plate and or fine file
 
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Thanks for keeping the knowledge coming everyone. I’ve got a good local gunsmith, I’ll have him look at it and see what the repair cost would be. Then, I’ll determine if I want to begin dabbling in gunsmithing depending on his quote.
Thank you for setting me straight on the punches.

I’m assuming due to condition of this gun there’s not really any value to hurt with “repairs”.
 
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Have you compared the serial numbers on the barrel, cylinder, frame for matching numbers? Just curious, good luck with repairs and having a cool old shooter!
 
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