Early K 38 Question

[Dan M]

I found this early K-38 today in one of my local shops. Serial # K44067, all numbers correct except the Target Stocks. 98% gun. I am guessing 1948 as the year it shipped. My questions are:
1. Is the Hammer with this large of a thumbpiece the Norm?
2. What are your opinions of the Target Stocks as to maker.

thanks

Dan M
SWCA 2054

oops

posted in the wrong forum, If needed I can move the post.

 

[Dan M]

I found this early K-38 today in one of my local shops. Serial # K44067, all numbers correct except the Target Stocks. 98% gun. I am guessing 1948 as the year it shipped. My questions are:
1. Is the Hammer with this large of a thumbpiece the Norm?
2. What are your opinions of the Target Stocks as to maker.

thanks

Dan M
SWCA 2054

oops

posted in the wrong forum, If needed I can move the post.

 

[j38]

Nice gun, Dan. Sorry I can't help with either question. I've seen that hammer before on a beat-up M&P at a local gun show last year. Passed on it.

The grips don't look familiar to me but I'm a little intrigued by the palm swell and checkering on the right side for - a right handed shooter. Makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the post,

Jerry

 

[laytonj1]

The SCSW only list the .375" hammer on the early k38's but I have a 1950 K38 and owned a 1950 K22 that both had .5" target hammers.

Jim

 

[1sg]

I can't help with your questions either. However I really like the grips. I've seen one other similar set on a post war M10; I should have bought it just for the grips...

 

[VM]

I have a 1949 K38 with factory target hammer and nonrelieved target stocks. I have not lettered it but believe it to be proper and left factory '51/'52 - this told to me from orig owner.


Dan I think you have some John Hurst grips because of the open back strap and palm swell with professional checkering.
You can do a search and you'll find similar grips.


Here's a partial post from a member that was friends with John and worked with him.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Member OIF2 past post</span>
Hello
I have several sets of Hurst stocks and I'll try to post some photos this weekend. John Hurst was an LA policeman from 1950 to 1978. An outstanding marksman and firearms instructor, he also made beautiful grips that looked similar to Farrant's. At one time, the entire LAPD pistol team used his revolver stocks. John was a member of the US Olympic team in 1960, was the first LA cop to shoot a perfect score on the LAPD bonus qual course and was the 3rd person to break 2650 in bullseye (and did it with REVOLVERS). A decorated WW2 vet who fought in the South Pacific, John was a totally modest guy who was one of the great marksmen of his era. There's a couple of nice photos of John's work in the classified section ("WTB= JOHN HURST GRIPS").
Bob

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

Are you sure those stocks are Hurst's and not a set of Fuzzy Farrant's? I had a set of Farrants on my first duty gun (19-3) and stupidly sold them with the gun back in the 1980s. Can't find anymore of them, but they look the same to me.

 

[JayCeeNC]

Dan, I believe it was standard to ship those early K-38's with target hammer and standard trigger. I have a couple, at least one box end says "Target Hammer" on it. Not sure about the width of mine, I'm "on vacation" right now and don't have access to them for measuring.
Those grips look like Fuzzy Farrant's work to me, I've owned several sets of his grips. However, I've never owned a set of Hurst's so I can't say for certain.
If it came out of southern CA. the grips are more than likely Farrant or Hurst.

 

[handejector]

Target Hammers came out in 50, so your gun might be a bit early for it. Or, it may have shipped late. Likely it was added later- the factory always sold the hammers.
The grips look like Fuzzy's, but I am not familiar with Hurst's. I have read that Fuzzy had a couple of buddies that were either proteges or partners or something like students.

 

[rburg]

Gawd I hate it when I'm forced to agree with Lee.

 

[Sverre]

Dan -

You also have a K38 with the "lightweight" tapered barrel. They later brought the weight up for the line with the "heavy" non-tapered or tube barrel so as to make it the same weight as the K32 and K38.For a few years you could have either barrel. They later discontinueds the tapered lighter barrel. Does the front sight have the 1/10" inch or 1/8" wide blade? Good find! You must have picked it up at Murphy's?
Cheers,
Sverre

 

[Dan M]

Thanks Guys,

I figured the Hammer was a replacement. The gun shipped in 1948, It appears to have been fired very little. The front sight blade is like 3/16" wide. And nope it didnt come from Murphy's although I stop there daily checking out the new arrivals.
From the pictures I have seen I think these are Fuzzy Stocks. The panels interiors dont match the Hurst panels I found pictures of.

Dan

 

[mikepriwer]

I wrote an article for the S&WCA Journal some years ago, about the very early
K-frame target hammer. The gun I wrote about was K803xx, shipped in Jan of 1950.
This was thought to be about the earliest that target hammers were available, and
K803xx was shipped with the target hammer. In the records for the gun, the hammer
was described as "low-spar" .

If you know, for sure, that yours was a 1948 shipment, then it might be worth getting
a letter - just to see if maybe the hammers were available earlier than 1950. I think, as
others do, that 1950 was the introduction.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[wheelgun610]

To me, the profile of that hammer doesn't look like what I'm used to seeing on early factory target hammers. The spur doesn't appear to have as much of an arch. Do ya suppose they tried another style of target hammer before settling on the more commonly seen design?

My own K-38 - in the K43000's - has the so-called 'fishhook' hammer and 1/10" front blade....

Mark

 

[Memphis]

I noticed the same thing. the hammer looks "flatter" and "straighter" than what I thought the normal .5" hammer was shapped. Darn nice gun too!

Roger

 

[VM]

here is mine - it doesn't look like either
K830xx

 

[mikepriwer]

VM

Your hammer looks exactly like the early one I have. The rear end of it has that
same downward dip - almost as though it has been uncut on the underside - which it
has not . The one on Dans gun does not have that dipping down in the rear end
of it - making me think that his is a later hammer.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[wheelgun610]

I think it's also conceivable that the hammer might be a later addition, and the spur was heated and bent upward a bit to clear the grips.

At any rate, all the factory target hammers I'm aware of look like the one on VM's gun - which appears to be a 'heavy' barreled version.

Mark

 

[Dan M]

Well I compared this hammer to all the other Target Hammers both K Frame and N Frame that I Have or Pictures of others I could find and the spur is different to them all. When I 1st saw it Kings Cockeyed were my 1st thoughts. Anyways Its different and that is what drew my attention to it. Think I'll keep it in my Salesman's Sample Box

Merry Christmas everyone

Dan

 

[moosedog]

Nice K-38. I agree that those grips are Fuzzy's. He was known to plug the right grip panel to cover the screw hole.

 

[VM]

Nice K-38. I agree that those grips are Fuzzy's. He was known to plug the right grip panel to cover the screw hole.

You are correct and have I now changed my mind that they are indeed FF

I love this Forum and the knowledge that exist!

 

[Clyde from Carolina]

Great piece and photos, great info in a great thread. Love this board!

 

[OIF2]

Gotta throw my .02 in- definately Fuzzy Farrant's stocks. Just a wild-ass out-there question...is it by any chance DAO? It would be an old LAPD gun. Most of our old K-38s had narrow triggers and target hammers.
Bob

 

[Dan M]

No it is both single and double action. I will try and get more info out of the shop owner. He said this one and a model 36 came from an estate.

Dan

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

OIF2,

I don't think that was a duty gun at all. It has none of the wear associated with daily holster carry and car door/wall/steering wheel impacts...

 

[OIF2]

Roger, Wayne. Probably true, but I saw many LAPD revolvers in almost mint condition that had been carried daily- detectives (yes, LAPD Detectives carried 6" guns), inside people and guys using flap holsters. Depends on the assignment. I was also thinking the hammer had possibly been replaced after retirement (like I did with my M67). Just a thought.
Bob

 

[mikepriwer]

I can only speak for K803xx, which was an LAPD gun, belonging to Chief Ed Davis.
It was shipped to the Elysian Park Range, and was one of Chief Davis' carrer revolvers.
It was shipped in Jan of 1950.

It doesn't show much wear - maybe its a 95% gun. The trigger-limiting travel adjustment
had been set such that it was DAO, but the single-action notch was not ground off the
hammer, like was done to another of his guns.

I have another, K92xxx, shipped in Dec 1950, to the dealer in Waco, who did a lot of
business with the Texas Ranger. This gun was carried by a Ranger, and the condition
is about the same as Chief Davis's gun, except for the dinged rear sight blade.
Apparently the gun was dropped on one corner of the blade.

Both have the very early target hammer.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[OIF2]

Hi Mike
Fascinating data on the Ed Davis gun...could you post photos? Elysian Park is the location of the (original) Academy and Davis is one of the legendary Chiefs. 1950 would be early enough in Davis' career that it actually got carried. I worked the Academy for two years as an instructor and inspected hundreds of guns...wear wasn't as bad as one would expect-partly because of the nice year-round weather. As far as the mandated DAO is concerned, it started in '71, I think. Again, fascinating- and pix on both would be nice, if possible.
Bob

 

[mikepriwer]

Bob

I'm under the impression that, at the time, the Elysian Park Range was either run
by, or extensively used by, the LAPD. Chief Davis got the gun new, from the range.
I think the range was where the LAPD guns were shipped. The letter indicates that
the gun was for the LAPD.

Chief Davis did carry this gun, as well as a 4" from the middle of 1975. This
later one, 6Kxxxxx , was shipped to the LAPD itself, for Chief Davis.

As to pictures, it will have to wait a bit. I don't have a good camera , but
my nephew does, here in Portland. I might be able to get over there next week.
If not, then it will be a month or so.

Interestingly, both of these guns came with custom rosewood grips, that were made
for him by Sgt Walter Shank (sic?) at the range. That name is in a letter Chief
Davis wrote to me, answering questions about the grips and the guns. The earlier
gun has the front corner of the frame cut off, to accomodate the particular style
of custom grip. The 4" gun has a slightly different style of grip, that did not
necessitate cutting the frame.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[OIF2]

This is great stuff, Mike. I'll eagerly await pix. The Elysian Park Academy also houses the Los Angeles Police Revolver Club (which actually owns the property) and has a long relationship with S&W. It is the Academy gun store. It was the site of the shooting portion of the 1932 Olympics and then became the Academy range and training facility. So it makes total sense that the gun(s) were shipped there. I'll research the grip maker-only problem, alot of the old coppers are dead. I'll see what I can do. The new Academy and firing ranges are named after Ed Davis, incidentally, and are at the junction of the 405 and the 5 Fwys. Not the same aura as the old Elysian Park facility (now only used for in-service training).
Bob