Erratic Reloads

[ncbengal]

I'm trying to develop accurate .357 reloads for my Mod 19-4 which is in good shape. I'm using 158gr lead swc's from Berry and Magnus. Using data right out of the Hodgdon charts, sticking to the low end of the range with Tite Group, Auto Comp, 231. From sand bag rest at 25 yd it's printing 8 - 12" groups for 5 shots. It does much better jacketed (158 gr Speer Gold Dot) bullets, but these are a little too rich for targets.

With .38 spl brass I have been pushing the upper limit of load data, even into the +P category, and so far have had somewhat better performance. Is this trying to tell me something? Am I expecting too much from cast bullets?

I've ordered some plated .358 bullets to compare.

 

[Dragon88]

Lead bullets can be just as accurate as plated if you load them right. Are you referencing cast load data? Have you tried a higher charge, something giving around 1000 fps? I find my 158 SWCs for 357 are most accurate around 1000 fps or a little over. Much faster and you can get leading unless they are very hard or have a gas check. Are your bullets sized to .358? Lead bullets need to be sized a little larger than jacketed because they generate less friction when they go down the bore, so they need to be a bit bigger to "grip" the rifling.

How much are you crimping? If you over crimp the bullets will be swaged down in size as they exit the case mouth, reducing accuracy for the same reason above.

 

[Dan Cash]

Sounds like your bullets are too small and your powder charge is too light for the type of propellant. Your .38s do better because they are loaded to higher pressure and the bullet is bumping up to fit the bore. A proper fitting and properly lubricated lead bullet, even soft lead, will not leave lead in the bore when driven to 1200 fps or even a bit more. Up your charges a bit and see if things don't improve. If not, try some Unique and 2400. They are a lot easier to work with.

 

[sonny]

Erratic to me means adequate crimp; enough for good ignition. Assumiing that you KNOW that your powder charge is within 0.1 grain.
Sonny

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, those groups are more in the "pattern" category rather than group category! You can surely do better than that.

There are tons of things that play into accuracy and lead bullets. How is the "leading" with those loads?

Usually the complaint is that there is a ton of leading first. Just curious.

If a lead bullet is too hard and too small, leading and accuracy issues are going to surface. If a bullet is too big and too soft usually it will shoot better at lower velocities.

A lead bullet in 38spl for target type loads in the 158gr range is what I have been shooting for years. At 800fps it will make one hole groups from a rest out to 25 yards. The BHN need not be any more than 12-15 for that kind of duty. Sized to .358"-.359" and you should be good to go.

Personally, I can't stand Titegroup and I have no experience with AutoComp but W231 is a standard for this type of shooting. If you can't get accurate loads with this combination, there are other problems.

 

[andyo5]

I'm not familiar with Berry or Magnus bullets. You might want to measure the OD of a few to check if they are sized correctly. While softer lead bullets are suitable for low velocity plinking, hard cast bullets need more pressure to swell up and fill the grooves. At low velocity, they will lead the bore badly. I shoot 158g hard cast bullets at 1200 to 1300 fps in my guns with only mild leading. And accuracy is very good (within 2" at 25 yards). I like Unique for low loads, and 2400 for higher loads. I REALLY like H110 for high velocity loads, but it promotes flame cutting (in my Smiths, anyhow) so I discontinued using it.
Another potential issue for lead bullets is the diameter of the chambers in your cylinder. They should be no smaller than the diameter of the lead bullets. Clean the cylinder holes really well, and see if you can force a lead bullet through each one with finger pressure only (from the front side). If not, then these chambers are resizing your bullets before they enter the forcing cone. The chambers can be easily reamed to correct this. I did this with two 45 Colt revolvers and they improved drastically.

 

[Joed49]

I'm not familiar with the bullets you're using. I suspect the problem is the bullets. I believe the Berry's are soft lead and you may be pushing them to fast.

I have found that cast bullets can be very accurate but I've had bad luck with bulk lead bullets.

 

[Rancher]

First, the other posters are totally correct. Cast bullets have the potential to be every bit as accurate as jacketed. Second, clean the bore and chambers of all fouling; powder ash, lead, and copper. It may require soaking in hoppes or another mild solvent with daily refreshing for a few days until a fresh and tight-fitting patch comes out perfectly clean. Cleaning the forcing cone may require winding some copper Chore-boy strands into a 44 or larger caliber brush, attaching the brush from the frame window end of the barrel and rotating it in the forcing cone to scrub away all the fouling. QC the cleaning with a lens, especially in the chamber throats and forcing cone. Third, after the gun is clean, either measure the chamber throats and record the diameter of each, or do the bullet push-through check indicated previously. See the Cast Boolits or Los Angeles Silhouette Clubs sites for bullet sizing strategies in revolvers. Then go to the classic loads for that weight bullet, e.g, 5.0 Unique in a .38 case or from 5.0 to 5.2 Unique in a .357 case. Use a moderate to heavy crimp - no fair barely crimping. Pick one chamber and shoot one round. Examine the gun carefully and a good light for any signs of leading in the throats, forcing cone, and bore. You should only see powder ash. If not, there is a mis-match somewhere and further investigation will be needed. It will be difficult to make a too-small hard cast bullet perform, but you can try going to a 2400 load to see whether the increased pressure will make the load shoot without leading. The best bet for target loads is to find soft bullets that match your cylinder throats.

 

[H Richard]

I shoot cast bullets almost exclusively, and with my 686 and .38 Spec cases I load 4.9 gr. 231 behind 158 gr. cast rnfp or swc. This is out my old Lyman Cast bullet handbook as most accurate load, and it is. Chrono at 906 fps and shoots into 1 1/2" at 25 yards. Works equally well in my mod 15's or mod 60.

A "firm" crimp and Fed primers are also used.

 

[ncbengal]

Thanks, guys for some good info. Berry and Magnus are both hard cast swc's and look like come from the same mold, one lube groove, one crimp groove. Have not mic'd either one, but good suggestion.

 

[acl864]

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[ncbengal]

By the way... what part of Nawth Carolinah are you from?

Andy: I am in the metropolis of Brevard, been here for nearly 50 yrs, ready to be part of the 51st state of West Carolina in view of the daily screwing we get from Raleigh. But that's probably more than you wanted to know. Dick

 

[acl864]

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[WVfishguy]

I use a lot of Magnus and Berry bullets, and they have both been very good. Your problems are probably not from the bullets. However, plated bullets need to be run through a bullet seating die if you are using a Lee press.
Lots of things cause inaccuracy, such as light primer strikes.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

I have a 19-4, and a 686-6 that simply don't like .38 Special cases...
Plated, cast, and swedged 148gn DEWC's and HBWC's, 158gn cast RN and SWC's, and 158gn jacketed shoot much better out of a .357 case...
In those two guns...I have a 627 that doesn't care about bullet jump...

 

[TSQUARED]

I have used the 158 gr. LRN with 3.6 to 4.0 gr. Trail Boss for consistent one inch groups at 25 yards.