ESR division going bye bye?

[buckeyefist]

Just got the email. Possible combining of SSR & ESR divisions in IDPA.....& still no fully loaded 7 or 8 shots allowed.

I am a paid up IDPA member but certainly not super active but what the heck IDPA....I love my 625's & 627's, just never could feel "sporty" without the moons.

Here is a copy/paste of the email.

Another announcement almost as big is the addition of a new division in IDPA. We actually have two ideas and again, we want your input. The final specifics of each option are yet to be determined, as we want the members opinion first on which option to peruse.



Option 1: Compact Carry Pistol (CCP) – this would be for double action or single action guns. This division would be largely like SSP otherwise but the gun size would be limited to guns of M&P compact or Glock 19 size.



Option 2: Laser and Optic Pistol (LOP) – this division would allow for the mounting of a laser or slide mounted optic on the handgun. The optic would have to be mounted between the rear of the ejection port and the rear of the slide. Both single action and double action would be allowed. We might also add revolver to this division.



Remember, the complete requirements are not yet set for these divisions but we want you to tell us the direction to work on. To let us know, please got to www.surveymonkey.com/s/JT6HJDF to make your choice.



With the addition of this new division, we have also decided to eliminate the ESR Division. While we know that this will make a few people unhappy, the results for sanctioned matches in the past year show that ESR comprises less than 3 percent of all competitors. This number also holds true for classifications held by our entire membership. We are looking at the possibility of adding these guns back to SSR so that we do not completely lose our members ability to shoot them.

Comments or thoughts on their decisions?

 

[Bkreutz]

I think they're responding to the numbers. 3% is a very small number to have a complete class of shooting. I think what will happen is that they will allow either moon or speed loaders in a combined revolver class (at least that's the impression I got from the email).

 

[roundgunner]

I have gotten 2nd and third ESR master at the Winter Nationals and not had enough people in the class to even get recognized. I get it.

I will be going to the laser division.

 

[OKFC05]

Compact Carry Division would make a lot more sense than optic at our club. Several already shoot with their carry gun, and several have asked about it. Going to be an interesting vote. Not sure how a slide mounted optic fits into the IDPA original goal of "a gun you could carry concealed;" really popular in 3 gun circles though.

 

[Pizza Bob]

A little hasty in their decision on ESR. They should be promoting it, not eliminating it. Now that the 8-shot revolvers are the hot set-up for USPSA there are lots of 625's that will go unused in competition. It would be a natural move to come into the IDPA fold. They need to get some gun writer in a popular magazine to do an article along those lines.

Combine ESR & SSR? While the difference in Power Factors somewhat helps mitigate the speed difference in reloading (moons vs. speed loaders), the SSR guns will still be at a disadvantage.

Looking back over these changes and the previous set of changes, I just wish the hierarchy at IDPA would have adhered to, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" We don't need constant rule changes, we need some stability.

JMHO

Adios,

Pizza Bob<----3%er

 

[tomcatt51]

Wouldn't a 4" 625 with 45AR and speedloaders be an SSR? 250gr bullets @ 425 fps would be interesting...

 

[buckeyefist]

I guess im just a "run what ya brung as long as its a production gun" kinda guy. I can certainly see the compettitive aspects of divisions, and the need to keep the sport realistic in nature. Which makes it tough to put a model 19 k frame with speed loaders in the same class as a moonclipped 627 & expect a good turnout.

I like the intent behind the IDPA, but i am biased due to the no 8 shot rule. I would love to run my 627 in CDP against those guys, or even ESP, i know there is USPSA, i dunno.

I guess the bottom line is there are just not enough revolver shooters involved.

 

[Waywatcher]

If IDPA wants to be relevant, they should cater to the CCW folks. There's already USPSA for running a Glock 34 with 10 rounds in the mag.

Eliminating ESR is a step in the right direction; so few people shoot any kind of revolver, let alone enough to justify two divisions.

 

[RaginRog]

Would love to be able to use my 627- 8 shot. It doesn't make sense to me as a newbie why it's not and semi with 10-17 round magazines are? I would gladly compete with it over my M&P or P226. I know I'll never be a master or possibly even a sharpshooter, but I'm learning how to react under pressure (timed), and having a good time.

 

[RaginRog]

Compact Carry Division would make a lot more sense than optic at our club. Several already shoot with their carry gun, and several have asked about it. Going to be an interesting vote. Not sure how a slide mounted optic fits into the IDPA original goal of "a gun you could carry concealed;" really popular in 3 gun circles though.

Pretty sure a guy or gal would have to be 6'8" and 300 lbs to be able to pull off carrying a 686 with a 6" barrel and scope as a concealed gun.

 

[buckeyefist]

"Eliminating ESR is a step in the right direction; so few people shoot any kind of revolver, let alone enough to justify two divisions."

I see your point. Mabye a lessening of guidelines & divisions for revolver is a better approach to garner more participants. Might work out better.

Interested to see what comes of this.

 

[oldafsp]

As a ESR and SSR competitor, I am not real happy with IDPA's decision in this. Granted, the 3% stats may be the telling tale.

Many of us during the comment section hoped that IDPA would look at reducing the power factor in ESR to a more reasonable level. 135-140 would have been ideal, allowing for more .357 shooters to compete in the division.

My first reaction to the optics class is that IDPA is trying to emulate USPSA. Getting away from carry type guns of basic design is not in keeping with the skill set that they hoped to develop from the onset.

It is apparent that the current trend goes to the semi auto pistol category. And of course the masses gravitate to them, they are much easier to shoot. And the advantage of coming to the line with 31 rounds cannot be understated.

Sadly, shooters who have never learned to shoot a revolver in competition will never get to acquire that skill set.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[Cd586]

I think the reasoning behind the optics division being considered is that a lot of companies are now marketing "tactical" optics. They would not really be USPSA race guns, the guns are still going to be SSP or ESP guns with small optics on top. These are definitely not the same as a full bore open gun setup for USPSA, IPSC, or Bianchi Cup. I also strongly doubt IDPA is going to have any 31 round capacity magazines as legal. Even if they did, the best shooters would still be the best, and the worst would still be the worst. I shoot multiple action pistol disciplines and I can say without hesitation that no matter what you shoot, you have to do so quickly and accurately. USPSA Open is a remarkably difficult division to shoot. If it wasn't, and if it was just guys "spraying and praying" randomly, there wouldn't be the same top 10 - 15 guys winning events around the country every year. It would mean that any one could just strap on a gun and win an event by sheer luck.

That having been said, the compact division would make more sense to me if its a one or the other affair. I've heard people complain about wanting to use lasers/optics, but far more people are not content about 'carry gun' size versus full gun size for carry guns.

 

[Tanners Owner]

While I support a CCW division, think it needs to be smaller guns than Glock 19 class.

Am also very disappointed with elimination of ESR. Think it should be expanded to include 7 & 8 shot revolvers. Would likely strengthen the division

 

[MattNH]

I wish they would simplify. There should be a stock single stack division, stock double stack division, stock revolver division and a shoot anything division.

And by stock, if you can buy the part from the gun manufacturer, legal. Revolver = 6 shot, 7 shot, 8 shot. Shoot anything, do anything to the gun as long it can be concealed, optics, aftermarket barels whatever.

 

[Waywatcher]

MattNH,

How would your proposed divisions differ from CDP, SSP, and SSR, respectively?

Or are you advocating dropping ESP and ESR and adding an "Open" class?

 

[theoneff]

Why would they not just do a all stock revolver division together with different handicap levels for moons, speed load, 6 shot v 8 shot. Am not compeeting now but would like to in the near future. Cheers, Ted

 

[S&WIowegan]

I shoot at two IDPA clubs and no one shoots revolver unless I do. Since I only shoot at club matches, it doesn't matter to me if it's recognized or not.

Most of the IDPA shooters we have are young guys with entry level plastic guns. That seems to be the IDPA niche here.

 

[MattNH]

MattNH,

How would your proposed divisions differ from CDP, SSP, and SSR, respectively?

Or are you advocating dropping ESP and ESR and adding an "Open" class?

Kinda. In CDP now i can't use 9mm, so my Beretta Type M or my Shield is SSP or ESP, depending on what I do to it, but at a "perceived" disadvantage with reload points.

So go to a stock single stack division, this would include all the single stack 9's that people actually carry up through 1911s. Change stuff like grips and sights and internal parts if they come from the OEM.

Do the same thing with the double stacks. As long as it can be concealed.

Same with revolvers, 6 shot, 7 shot, 8 shot, doesn't matter. Comes recessed for moon clips, use them, otherwise speed loaders.

They lump everything else into open. Go for optics, aftermarket barels, triggers, what ever you want to throw into the gun.

Have no more overall winner, but top in 4 divisions.

They current proposal keeps SSP (Glock 34/17 and M&P division) ESP (put a aluminum trigger in division) CDP (45's only), SSR (speed loaders vs moon clips) and adds the Glock 19 division and/or an optics division with no ESR.

The rules are way to complicated and don't have to be.

But, I'm not quitting my day job to be sponsored. I want to go shoot, with simple rules and be ranked against those with similar equipment. By the way, I shoot a Beretta 92FS in the competition, although I have never carried a day it my life. I used my Shield 40 in the BUG match even though it my carry gun until I gave it to my brother. Now I carry a S&W Model 60, not gonna use that in the regular game, but will in a BUG match.

 

[Tanners Owner]

While I agree the majority of IDPA shooters are in the SSP or ESP divisions, we have a small but growing group of wheel gun shooters. My wife, daughter & a friend's wife all prefer the K frame revolvers to the M&P, CZ, Sig, & Glocks.

I'll shoot SSR if I can't shoot ESR, but had hoped to continue competing w/ my 625.