Ever Wonder Why A Collectible Gun Has No Provenance?

22hipower

22hipower

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I've watched a number of guns sell at auction this year, mostly the RIA auctions as I could handle everything on their preview days. At least a dozen Registered Magnums were sold this year and many other collectible guns and most of them had little or no provenance. The RMs, if they had anything, sometimes had a S&W historical letter.

I sat through much of last weekend's RIA auction doing a little bidding but no buying. There were some very interesting pieces such as the 1942 Winchester M70 carbine in 257 Roberts that sold for $99,875 plus tax/shipping.

At the end an RM came up that I had looked at but hadn't considered buying. It had a box not numbered so maybe not THE box but in good condition, cleaning brush, but no documentation. The gun was advertised as 98% original condition and appeared to be so although the magnas didn't number to the gun. I was surprised that such a nice piece would not have any provenance with it but when there wasn't much bidding action I bought it.

Got it home and did a little internet research and up pops info from previous sales and it does have provenance. Excerpt from the S&W letter and a good bit of history on the original buyer, a LT in the Coast Guard who participated in the WWII invasion of France and later the invasion of Okinawa and retired as a Rear Admiral. How previous owners let that provenance get away is surprising to me. Would also like to have seen that holster and belt that the LT bought from S&W for $1.25. The condition of the gun suggests LT Maley may never have gotten around to firing the 500 rounds of ammo he bought with it.

Needless to say I'm pleased with the gun and the bonus of the provenance. Which brings up a question, what do you do to insure that the provenance for your collectibles doesn't get separated from the guns?

Jeff
SWCA #1457


https://flic.kr/p/2qz6e4f https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2qyZgpH https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

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https://flic.kr/p/2qz6czd https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2qz4TkM https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

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My guess is that many collections are left in the possession of the wife of a recently deceased husband. I can say that my wife would not know all the places I store information about my gun collection and would likely not look for them when the auction guy comes knocking. Usually, they do not have time to search the premises for documentation, so take the firearms and off to auction they go I have seen Registered Magnums go up for sale without mention of the fact they were stamped as such, but at least RIA would inspect the gun and look up enough information to properly name it?
 
Great score ! Congratulations Jeff!

Having a few collectible revolvers with provenance I have walked both of my sons through the various accoutrements that belong with each gun.

But in the event of my untimely demise I can see mistakes being made.

In my case I keep guns in a safe. Boxes in their own area. Then documentation in a file folder. All in one room but separate.

I think the best bet is to liquidate or disperse collection before we check out
;)
 
mchom said:
I think the best bet is to liquidate or disperse collection before we check out
;)
Click to expand...

And now, closing in on 79 YO, that is exactly what I have been doing for about the past year or so. Fortunately a good friend, nearly 20 years younger than me, has similar collecting interests, so I have been able to move most of my small collection to him including all of the provenance documentation, applicable Journal articles I have written, and other extras (boxes, SATS, brochures, etc). The only collectible gun I have left now is my KCPD RM which now includes a small blue picture box, SAT, .357 Magnum brochure, period correct KCPD holster, hat, and badge/shooting medal collection, a 2” thick folder I have put together on Chief Lear Reed and the KCPD, and 2 copies of the book that Lear Reed wrote (Human Wolves) which documented his rebuilding of the KCPD from 1939 to 1942. I considered just giving this package to my nephew, but he is not a collector, and my friend convinced me that this package NEEDS to go to a collector - in this case him of course. [emoji1]
 
The best you can do is write it down somewhere to go with the gun after you're gone.

It's amazing how much info. you can find on the net. I bought a used SA 1911 that supposedly had work done at the SA Custom shop. After a little research, I actually found some original posts about the gun and the work done to it on the 1911forum from over 10 years ago.

Congrats on your new RM.
 
Ever Wonder Why A Collectible Gun Has No Provenance?/QUOTE]

Just my H.O.P. At the time these guns were ordered they were thought of as Nothing more than a High quality working tool. As for second or third tier owners, many have no interest in a firearms history, other than value.

Happy holidays all..
Click to expand...
 
Wow, Cannandaigua. That’s about 80 miles down the thruway from me. Just east of Rochester. It’s the western most side of the Fingerlakes Region.
 
Probably because after nearly 90 years many/most of the guns had changed hands several times and information about prior owners was lost after one or more of these ownership changes. Other than that many original owners were just "Joe Average" that no one would recognize anyway, so that information is useless and of no real interest to most, any more than it was at any time during the guns history.
 
Alk8944 said:
Other than that many original owners were just "Joe Average" that no one would recognize anyway, so that information is useless and of no real interest to most, any more than it was at any time during the guns history.
Click to expand...

I get the "Joe Average" and most letters are going to give us just the original distributor and ship date but that is often interesting too and getting the original buyer's name, when that happens, is indeed a bonus. However, those letters also confirm the original configuration which in the case of RMs is useful as many had barrels shortened, sights changed, etc. etc.

Maybe I've just been lucky with RMs/NRMs but the letters and other documentation for each have been very helpful and I suspect would be valuable to future buyers. My first RM was gifted to the Company Commander of an artillery battery in 1939 which led to discovering his long history as a veteran of WWI/WWII/Korea. Not a lot about the gun but certainly turned in to very interesting information about the original owner.

The second RM turned out to be an eight inch (one of 23) with a ramp front sight, quite possibly the only RM that S&W ever produced in that configuration. Without the order forms and correspondence from the Historical Foundation I would never have realized how rare that configuration is.

The third is an NRM which it turns out would have been the very last RM (5422) but the program was cancelled before it was stamped even though the registration number is included on the invoice. Without the letter and invoice that interesting bit of information would not have been known.

The fourth of course is the RM shown here and knowing that it was owned by another WWII military veteran makes me want to obtain the original order form and correspondence which the letter suggests is available.

Also have my share of letters to "ACME Hardware" with little other than a copy of the invoice but the occasional hit on interesting and sometimes valuable information seems worth the trouble of obtaining and protecting it.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
 
Excellent buy, very nice gun, and the those boxes are not cheap either!! I keep telling my wife that I have so many guns, boxes, and letters I will need to write her a book to sort it all out. The title of the book being "HAPPILY EVER AFTER"
 
EPP said:
Its hard to understand how a gun in such good condition, ended up with its grips replaced.
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My guess would be that either the Admiral (who died in 1973) or a subsequent owner over the last 50 years, put different stocks on it, Ropers were favorites, maybe some ivories, maybe some targets. As often happens when the grips are removed we forget where we put them, put them on another gun temporarily and then "oops" they're gone. Many of us have spent a fair amount of time, and money, trying to obtain "period correct" stocks as finding the originals isn't going to happen. Would love to have the originals but not having them doesn't bother me nearly as much as would a modification or refinish.

By the way, if anyone has a set of post war N magnas in pre-war length for a 38/44 transitional Outdoorsman, I need a set.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
 
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