Ever Wonder Why A Collectible Gun Has No Provenance?

[Bo Rich]

22hipower, I collect Pre 1964 Model 70s. I was wondering why that .257 Roberts Carbine sold for $99,850 plus expenses? I know that it is a desirable gun, but that price seems excessive. Was there something special about the carbine?

 

[22hipower]

22hipower, I collect Pre 1964 Model 70s. I was wondering why that .257 Roberts Carbine sold for $99,850 plus expenses? I know that it is a desirable gun, but that price seems excessive. Was there something special about the carbine?

The only thing that I could see that was extra special about it was that two people, both with deep pockets, really wanted it. Not that it isn't special, not many 1940s M70 carbines, even fewer that were Super Grade and maybe only this one in 257 Roberts. But, that said, RIA had a low estimate of $5,500 and high one of $8500 so they didn't expect it to go anywhere near that high.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[RKmesa]

Great RM!!! Congrats and thanks for sharing.

 

[Bo Rich]

Jeff, Thank you for the report on the Model 70 Carbine. The last RIA they had a engraved “RCS” Model 70 in .220 Swift that sold for almost $300,000! Way more then I thought it would sell for. So, I guess that some are willing to pay a lot of money to add a rare Model 70 to there collection.

 

[BillyMagg]

Family First

And now, closing in on 79 YO, that is exactly what I have been doing for about the past year or so. Fortunately a good friend, nearly 20 years younger than me, has similar collecting interests, so I have been able to move most of my small collection to him including all of the provenance documentation, applicable Journal articles I have written, and other extras (boxes, SATS, brochures, etc). The only collectible gun I have left now is my KCPD RM which now includes a small blue picture box, SAT, .357 Magnum brochure, period correct KCPD holster, hat, and badge/shooting medal collection, a 2” thick folder I have put together on Chief Lear Reed and the KCPD, and 2 copies of the book that Lear Reed wrote (Human Wolves) which documented his rebuilding of the KCPD from 1939 to 1942. I considered just giving this package to my nephew, but he is not a collector, and my friend convinced me that this package NEEDS to go to a collector - in this case him of course. [emoji1]

I wouldn't overlook your nephew because he isn't a "collector". Honestly, I see hundreds of guns in the hands of people who will never take them out to the farm and put a few rounds through them? Gents who are frankly unworthy of many of the pieces in their collection, kinda like 69 Z-28's.

So called "collectors" have driven the price of all of our cool toys out of the realm of those who have an interest and a desire, but not the ability financially to be a "collector". Whether its Barrett Jackson, Mecom's, or RIA, I'm simply glad to have a few hard earned toys in the gun safe to share at some point, with those people who love me, and care about what I care about, because it was mine.

I think the question should be, is your nephew a good kid, and would he have an interest in something you found to be precious?? If yes to both questions, its not to late to alter course.

I'm hoping to leave as many as I can to sons/daughters, grandsons and granddaughters with an interest. Same with archery equipment and golf clubs, LOL! I've got a Ben Hogan Apex Plus 1356 wedge that my Son in Law has his eye on, one of my favorites in the bag, (he ain't gonna get it now), but nice to know he has an interest. I have actually given him my first set of Hogan's and a nice old Hoyt Defiant with the machined aluminum riser with anodized camo.. so do as you wish? but don't overlook someone who might value a precious possession of yours, just because he' not a collector...

rant over, billy

 

[BAM-BAM]

Mine was a situation where the wife told her husband to "get your Grandfather's gun out of the house before the baby is born!!!

Put it in a local gunshop on consignment..... as new except it had Pachmayr grips on it... the shop said they'd ask about the original grips ..... but no luck!

Lettered it shipped to a Hardware distributor here in the Burgh. Out of business for decades.... dead end. Shop wouldn't disclose the owner.....
figured they didn't want him to know he'd sold a 3/4K gun for $350 minus their cut!

 

[LVSteve]

If you want to see lack of provenance, you should check out some of the weird variations of military rifles that turn up. I have an Enfield No4 Mk1 that has the receiver from an Enfield No1 MkVI. It's a known variation, but exactly how many were built that way was never recorded.

Then there are the "missing" production batches. I bought a very clean Arisaka Type 99 that I thought had been lightly sanded. When I showed it off to the better informed collectors, they told me I had one from a block of serials that at one time was considered unused. Over the years examples have appeared. All of them look like mine and on close examination have not been sanded. Where the heck they spent the war, why so few have been found, and why they are in such good condition but with the 'mum defaced is lost to history.

 

[dobegrant]

Congratulations on a great find, and what you found out after is really cool.

 

[mchom]

Terry

If you’re on the fence on dispensing your KC NRM I’m happy to send over some adoption papers. You can call label me any familial status you want.

 

[jimmyj]

I've watched a number of guns sell at auction this year, mostly the RIA auctions as I could handle everything on their preview days. At least a dozen Registered Magnums were sold this year and many other collectible guns and most of them had little or no provenance. The RMs, if they had anything, sometimes had a S&W historical letter.

I sat through much of last weekend's RIA auction doing a little bidding but no buying. There were some very interesting pieces such as the 1942 Winchester M70 carbine in 257 Roberts that sold for $99,875 plus tax/shipping.

At the end an RM came up that I had looked at but hadn't considered buying. It had a box not numbered so maybe not THE box but in good condition, cleaning brush, but no documentation. The gun was advertised as 98% original condition and appeared to be so although the magnas didn't number to the gun. I was surprised that such a nice piece would not have any provenance with it but when there wasn't much bidding action I bought it.

Got it home and did a little internet research and up pops info from previous sales and it does have provenance. Excerpt from the S&W letter and a good bit of history on the original buyer, a LT in the Coast Guard who participated in the WWII invasion of France and later the invasion of Okinawa and retired as a Rear Admiral. How previous owners let that provenance get away is surprising to me. Would also like to have seen that holster and belt that the LT bought from S&W for $1.25. The condition of the gun suggests LT Maley may never have gotten around to firing the 500 rounds of ammo he bought with it.

Needless to say I'm pleased with the gun and the bonus of the provenance. Which brings up a question, what do you do to insure that the provenance for your collectibles doesn't get separated from the guns?

Jeff
SWCA #1457


https://flic.kr/p/2qz6e4f https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

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In the condition this RM is in I would think that it never was in a holster or saw service at sea.

 

[LittleAugieMo]

It was lost.....