?Excessively Hot 44Mag Load?

[H Richard]

I would like any expertise to help me figure out why this load acts hot enough to have to pry the cases out of the chamber of my TC.

1st, I've been reloading for 30 years, and have been reloading 44 mag all 30 yrs.

Gun: Thompson Contender, 10" 44 mag barrel I have had for 30 years, is well cared for , and chamber completely clean and no 44 Specials have ever been shot in it.

Bullets: About a year ago from a fellow club members estate I purchased 5 boxes of Hornady 240 Gr. FMJ-FP bullets, Prod. Code #4427. I miked them, and were .429".

Load: 240 gr. FMJ-FP with 21.0 Gr. Accurate #9. OAL 1.590". Winchester WLP for standard/mag loads. Cases, mixed FC, RP, CBC, Win.

When fired, the load did not seem overly heavy, recoil seemed normal, but when opened the gun the extractor moved the case back normally but case was stuck in chamber so hard I had to use a screwdriver to pry the case about 1/2" up then could pull out with fingers. This happened with all the brass "except the CBC" (which is Magtech) and it was able to be extracted by fingers but took a firm grip. The primers were fairly flattened, but not as bad as I have seen with some max loads.

This was the first time I had loaded this combination, but have had great success with Hornady 180 Gr. XTP and 20.6 Gr AA#9.

I checked my manuals, and the:
Accurate (2007) manual lists 19.1 to 21.3.
Hornady (4th) manual lists 18.6 to 21.9.
Sierra (3rd) manual lists 18.5 to 21.3.
AA#9 is not listed as a load for the 240 Hornady in the Speer #10, Nosler #8, Hodgon (08), or the 1/09 Hodgon/IMR/Win. manual

I pulled 3 loads apart and all 3 I found slightly less than 21.0 gr, and I compared the powder to that in the AA#9 canister and it is the same in appearance. I figured I lost the slight difference in the pulling.

I have been loading from this same canister for awhile, and it is the same canister of powder I had used to work up the 180 gr 20.6 gr. load.

I plan to pull all the rest of the loads apart and discard the powder and reload with probably H110 - 296, or 4227.

Has anyone ever experienced a similar situation? Load verified, in the books, and below max load.

 

[Steve C]

This was the first time I had loaded this combination,

You have just run into the reason why manuals say to work up loads any time components change. Different bullets have different amount of their surface bearing against the barrel, that among othe things can change the pressure.

Do it right this time and start at 19.0grs and put together increasing loads up to just below 21.0 since you know how that works.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

That load is obviously too hot for that gun.The old rule of backing off and working back up whenever changing any component still applies.I've had numerous combinations that were below book max which proved to be too hot in a particular gun.

 

[shovelwrench]

Although Accurates current load data shows a lighter charge for a 240, I'm sure the difference in charge is'nt the issue. After all, your using a contender, and a longer seating depth. (and it is NEW data)

Are you against the lands?
Did you weigh em?

 

[RidgwayCO]

QuickLOAD doesn't list the #4427 bullet and neither does Hornady, so I'm assuming the design has been discontinued. Hornady #6 lists 21.3gr of AA #9 as a maximum load for their 240gr crimp lock silhouette (#4425) and HP/XTP (#44200) bullets, but with COLs of 1.600".

Substituting the #4425 bullet and loading to your 1.590" COL, QuickLOAD predicts a pressure of 40,557 psi, which is well in excess of the SAAMI maximum of 36,000 psi. Interestingly, Hornady #6 publishes loads for AA #9 in the handgun section for the .44 Magnum, but not in the T/C section. As an aside, QuickLOAD predicts the maximum amount of AA #9 at 20.1gr for your 1.590" COL load.

If I had to guess, I'd say your difficult extraction is due to high pressures. I originally thought it may have been due to a rough chamber, but you state that the chamber is clean and well cared for, which should eliminate that possibility.

 

[Jellybean]

I checked several of my manuals and they all verify the load is slightly below max., there shouldn't have been a problem. And I will admit it too that I have loaded max loads without working up to them, but I have never had a problem with extraction like that.

Did you double check your barrel before you started shooting? You didn't loan it to anyone or shoot some specials or russians or anything else you might have forgotten about?

 

[akaboson]

I've fired various loads through a 44 mag. TC with 10" ported barrel. I never had any extraction problems, even with the hottest loads.
Also had the same experience with this gun and .357 reloads.
The .357 barrel was machined slightly under size, and would not accept all reloads that were not sized to .357.
I'd check the test gun used for the ballistics of the loads you are using; A lack of flash gap can cause greater pressures, especially on the max loads.
The only other problem I had with the TC was piercing the primers from a firing pin not being finished properly. Honing the pin fixed this. But, even with this situation, over pressure signs were not evident any where else.
I'd have to slug the chamber, if I were having trouble like yours. I'd use chamber casting alloy from rotometals.com.

 

[akaboson]

P.S.
I just checked my notes and found I did have one load that was hard to eject from the TC 44 mag. It was a Hot Shot load of snake shot (don't know the size) that was supposed to be equivalent to a 410 load. It was 7.0 gr. of Bullseye under these Hot Shot capsules. Helluva recoil, and did stick in the chamber, but I didn't need tools to remove them. And these were in once fired cases.
I only had one other load that was hot enough to make notes about, and it knocked the fore stock off the barrel with every shot. But, no ejection problems to note.

 

[fredj338]

I believe your OAL was a bit short for that charge wt. Measure the amount of bullet in the case & compare to a known 240gr bullet & charge wt. you have used before. I had this problem when loading a 240grLTC using 240grLSWC data. The load should have been below max but is sticky in every 44mag I have fired it in. That extra 0.1" or so loss in powder volumn made a big diff. at elast w/ Universal powder.

 

[Dale53]

Current Accurate Arms data shows your load is simply too hot.

Reduce to 18.0 grs and work up slowly. Frankly, I would want to be 2.0 grs below sticking cases - that is NOT good. Even TC Contenders have their limits and you are exceeding yours.

Everytime I get to "cruising" and think I have "IT" all figured out, I find out that I don't. This is just the way the "Gods" have of putting us in our place from time to time...

Dale53

 

[Skip Sackett]

Lots of good info here:

I am wondering something though. Why did you stop at 20.6gr with a 180gr XTP and continue to 21gr with a 240gr bullet?

That tells me something. Don't you usually use more powder with a lighter bullet and less with a heavier one?

If extraction has to be forced your load is too hot. Thankfully it is in a T/C and not something with less structural integrity.

I have used AA#9 in many handgun loads with good success and never had an extraction problem with any of them.

The current data from Accurate is much less than what you are using:
No.9 240 SIE JHC 17.8 1,214 19.8 1,380 34,800 1.560

Granted, this isn't your bullet BUT your Hornady bullet isn't going to have some kind of magic dust on it to make it cause less pressure with greater powder weights.

Now, in your defense, older data does list loads much hotter for that same bullet mentioned above:
No.9 19.1 1320 No.9 21.3 1500 40,000

I have used this data with bullets from Remington, Hornady, and Winchester with good results. Over 1800fps from a Marlin 1894 and Handi-Rifle. They are "whompers" though! I get extremely flat primers with that maximum load so I backed down some and run in the middle of that data, right at 20gr +/- .3gr.

I also use that data for some MILSURP powder, WC820, and have at least 5 friends that use it for their deer hunting round.

To make too long of a story even longer, back 'er down and be safe!


Added:
Deeper seating could be one problem too. It would depend on where the cannelure was in relation to the base of the bullet. More bullet in the case makes for higher pressure. Just a thought.

 

[44forever]

Are you using a different case cleaning compound or something else that could be affecting the surface of the case? Did the cases size "hard" before being loaded?

 

[H Richard]

No different anything. I think Accurate discovered their original data was too hot, and backed it off just recently evidently.

With the 180 Gr, I stopped at 20.6 gr as that was where I got the best accruacy.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

It isn't that they discovered their loads were too hot, but that a few years back, SAAMI reduced the pressures in a lot of rounds. The .44 magnum went from 43,500 CUP to a much lower 36,000 PSI that is the current standard. That is one reason a lot of older manuals list loads that everyone now considers "hot".

All of the above doesn't explain your problem however. Like others have said, it's just that combo in your gun is too much. Don't forget, the jackets on the Sierra, and Hornady full profile bullets are noticably harder, and/or thicker than regular SP/HP bullets. That will definately cause pressures to rise.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

It isn't that they discovered their loads were too hot, but that a few years back, SAAMI reduced the pressures in a lot of rounds. The .44 magnum went from 43,500 CUP to a much lower 36,000 PSI that is the current standard. That is one reason a lot of older manuals list loads that everyone now considers "hot".

All of the above doesn't explain your problem however. Like others have said, it's just that combo in your gun is to much. Don't forget, the jackets on the Sierra, and Hornady full profile bullets are noticably harder, and/or thicker than regular SP/HP bullets. That will definately cause pressures to rise.

Ditto to all the above.....Many newer reloaders are apparently unaware of this which leads many of them to say that "X" load is too hot....Also,I've used quite a few Sierra JHC 240 gr as well as Speer 240 JSP over the years and when loading to near max,the Sierra bullet will develope increased pressures as well as increased velocity sooner than the comparable Speer.I automatically use a bit less powder when loading the Sierra.

 

[duckloads]

My story is of a 686-1. The gun was new to me, so I clenaed it before working up my loads. I had to drive cases out of the cylinder with most any load I tried, and I know the charge holes were clean. I cleaned them.

So, I wrapped some lead-away cloth around a smaller brush and chucked the works up in a cordless drill. I gave each chamber a good polish. I didn't go overboard but gave each hole 8-10 strokes while the drill was on high speed.

I shot the gun again last Saturday, and it was like a new gun. I shot 3 different loads, and the cases came out just great.

Good luck.

 

[borntoraisehogs]

I don't know if a similar condition could exist in a Contender , but I once had a nearly invisible cylider crack that allowed the brass to expand and then the crack would close and hold the brass like a clamp .

 

[Steve C]

went from 43,500 CUP to a much lower 36,000 PSI

Not lower, just different units of measurement. CUP vs PSI are not equal nor directly correlated. 1,000 fps is not faster than 304.8 mps.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Not lower, just different units of measurement. CUP vs PSI are not equal nor directly correlated. 1,000 fps is not faster than 304.8 mps.

Yes, lower. Any of the powder companies will say so. It has been written about extensively by Brian Pearce in Handloader.

While they are totally different methods of reading pressure, and there is no direct cross reference available, 36,000 PSI is noticeably lower pressure than 43,500 CUP.

FPS and MPS have nothing to do with my statement, which is accurate, and factual.

 

[Rone]

I know there was an issue with some accurate powders about 5 or 6 years ago that were produced in Eastern Europe. Don't know all the details but Clark's Custom Guns noted the Accurate powders used in hand loads for their 460 Rowland was producing too much pressure form a different batch of the same powder.