Expert help needed. 1905 4th change w/few markings

[hashbrown1978]

So I got a good one for the experts out there. I have searched long and hard and hit a brick wall.
SO I have this 1905 hand ejector 4th change .38sp, 6"bbl, blued(but may not be original), square butt. It has only 1 smith marking on the top of the barrel with the patent markings. It doesnt appear that any markings were ground off. Side of the bbl says .38sp ctg and on the other side stamped .38 special(non factory stamp). It was imported by Century Arms(stamped on right side of frame) and has a small "F" with a star above it which appears to be a proof mark I cant identify. The other odd part is all the major components are electro penciled "905".
My thought is this was a contract gun for another country, but I dont know what. This is my grandfathers gun, and up untill recently we thought it was just some beater 38, and didnt even know it was a smith. I thought maybe someone might find it interesting too. SN#258591. All SN matching so this isn't a frankenstein gun. Help please.

 

[Targets Guy]

I'll guess it shipped in April 1917. Looks to be like someone ground off the "Made in USA" and S&W trademark (but I think some years they didn't put one on; target models have been seen without any frame markings whatsoever) when refinishing. None of your photos show the front sight.

But keep a couple of things in mind:

1. not an expert
2. did not sleep in an Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[rct269]

I had a couple of its siblings which might help place it in time------#238778, shipped March 5, 1915----and #264678, shipped March 1, 1917. That puts it in the WWI time frame.

The supposed unidentified proof mark and your statement it was imported say it visited some far off land---at least farther off than New Jersey. Given your interest, I'd be tracking down the proof mark. Then I'd be speculating about what sort of organization in that far off place needs/uses handguns----and chooses to keep track of them with number stamps.

And the Boss Lady says it's time to eat, so I'm gone.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Waveski]

What an odd side plate. The gun has obviously been worked on , but whoever the armorer/'smith was sure did keep the screws in fine condition.

A S&W "Jinks letter" would at least determine where the revolver shipped to - but that does not come free.

 

[hashbrown1978]

The proof mark of "F w/star above it" i can't find anywhere. And ive been unable to find a single 1905 with serialized components. This could be a real mystery gun. I will probably write to Smith about it, but i really want to see if anyone has seen this sort of thing.
Every part seems original. Nothing replaced. Ive had it completely apart and found no other marks of identification. And i really don't think anything has been ground off. I think this contract must have called for no s&w markings. Maybe a foreign police force, since it doesn't have any military markings or lanyard swivel.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum, hashbrown.

During the WW I period and afterwards, S&W did not put their stamp on their revolvers. The "Made in USA" stamping did not appear until mid 1922. That stamping would be where the "905" is now.

 

[rct269]

I'm not sure what you mean by "serialized components", but you should find the frame/cylinder/barrel/yoke/right side grip panel/maybe backside of ejector carrying the (frame) serial number (and the front and rear sights on target models). Additionally the frame/yoke/sideplate should be carrying the same assembly number (by whatever more proper name it might be known).

And speaking of armorers who take good care of screw heads, if any of those serialized items up above carry different numbers/possibly no numbers, then you'll have a feel for what they don't take good care of.

Don't sweat the missing Made in U.S.A. business--------that came along in 1920 (best guess without looking it up). Same goes for a missing S&W logo, and I don't even have a guess about when now you see it, now you don't was----just that there was a time. We have folks here who can spout that sort of thing without looking anything up. Me------I have to give some thought to where to look it up.

Don't waste your time calling S&W for any information on your gun. Get a letter from the S&W Historical Foundation---and ask them to search for any additional data they may have (although I'm not so sure their digitized files go back far enough for this gun).

Ralph Tremaine

 

[hashbrown1978]

Yeah, I'd hate to pay the 50, and still be in the same spot. Any suggestion of reference for what countries had contracts for these. I really want to find out where this went in 1915-1916. Or where Century Arms imported it from. I can't even find any smiths that were imported by Century.
Im not looking for value. I just want to know the history. It's obviously obscure.

 

[Absalom]

It doesn‘t have to have been any specific contract. Smith & Wesson exported guns to distributors all over the world. The key is that mark which I do not recognize, but assume to be a national proof mark.

It looks from the photos like the sideplate was replaced or at least excessively polished. So the absence of the logo might be explained by either. The serial is too early for the war-related no-logo period.

A letter would be a shot in the dark, but might get you to a foreign importer.

 

[2152hq]

Just a WAG, but the revolver could be one of the boatload that Century Arms imported from Columbia about 20yrs ago.
That included Siths, Colts and Spanish mfg revolvers IIRC. MOst all 38spc and the early Spanish made guns in 38Long.

The guns were a mix of X-Police issue, X Military, some confiscated firearms and who knows where they came from.

That small mark might possibly be (and again just a guess) a property marking from one of the many agencys with in the Colombia Fuerzas Militares (sp?) Columbian Military Forces.
That includes all branches of the Military plus the Columbian National Police Force.
The mark when greatly enlarged looks (to me) like sort of an X over an FV. Maybe a C in there too!. Hard to tell.

The large ser#'d parts could be arsenal numbering when work was performed. Those marks look done with a stencil and etching process of some sort. The numbers on the separate are identicle in size and shape, not hand done.

I know this has a S&W bbl on it, sure it's a S&W and not a Spanish revolver?

 

[hashbrown1978]

Great info, guys. Thank you so much. Il look into the columbian connection. First ive got any info about Century Arms imports. Ive had her apart, and she definitely a smith. Not an eibar gun. But i was thinking that proof mark looks similar to spanish proof marks in font. Not sure. Thanks again, gentleman.

 

[glowe]

That serial number falls into the WWI era when the logo was not stamped and before the MADE IN USA was ordered. Most likely shipped somewhere in 1917. A half-dozen serial numbers that shipped in the same year as yours were shipped to Capt. PT Havana Cuba.

 

[Absalom]

That serial number falls into the WWI era when the logo was not stamped and before the MADE IN USA was ordered. Most likely shipped somewhere in 1917 ...

258591 would have to be a pretty late shipper for that. By April 1917, before the logo stamping stopped, production was up to the 275-thousands.

 

[Targets Guy]

s/n 2559xx, 2591xx and 2738xx all shipped in Apr 1917

s/n 2497xx shipped 3/16
s/n 2491xx shipped 4/16
s/n 2557xx shipped 10/16

There is no rhyme or reason on S&W serial numbers shipping.

 

[glowe]

Ship dates are always a best guesses, but there is a ryhme and reason, if you look at the trends in the serial number ranges, most all guns from 255XXX to 288XXX were shipped in 1917.

As for the logo, would it not be more accurate to look as ship dates than an arbitrary serial number cut-off referencing the s/n discrepencies discussed above? If the frames were s/n stamped but not completed, I am thinking any s/n from the bins that was built and shipped in 1917 could have been finished without the S&W logo??

 

[Absalom]

As for the logo, would it not be more accurate to look as ship dates than an arbitrary serial number cut-off referencing the s/n discrepencies discussed above? If the frames were s/n stamped but not completed, I am thinking any s/n from the bins that was built and shipped in 1917 could have been finished without the S&W logo??

Not really. I‘m somewhat resistant to using minor chronological inconsistencies in shipping as an explanation for situations that quite clearly contradict the overall pattern of production.

The data I have point to the 250/260- range being made mostly in 1916 and production being into the mid-to-upper-270-range by the approximate time of the logo stop in mid-1917.

So a 258- range gun not having a logo because it was somehow held back from assembly for so long that it got an unstamped sideplate is possible, but in no way likely or the best explanation, especially if the sideplate‘s surface looks as extensively maltreated as on this gun.