Explain 'Canted or Clocked Barrel' faults, open discussion invited

[ontargetagain]

A little background on myself. I like mechanical things and understanding how they work and how to make them better if possible. I continue to have interest in the workings of revolvers and semi-auto pistols and am a S&W fan though have owned a few Rugers too.

The Canted Barrel issue is something that keeps coming up and I hope to get a better understanding of the variables and faults it can cause so...............here goes a few questions and requests for a deeper explanation.

A canted barrel will shoot the same as a non-canted barrel. It is the front 'sight' that is in error of alignment to the rear sight........am I correct here? The canting of a barrel does not effect the accuracy of the barrel only the sight picture that is misaligned that causes the inaccuracy?

And if the barrel is slightly canted (lets say it's an acceptable tolerance of cant that we as customers and S&W can live with) having a front sight mounted that has a 'left-right' slight rotation adjustment in it will allow for rear to front dead on square sight picture?

Next issue, there is another thread running that mentions a 'crush factor' on the area of the barrel that is within the frame where as the barrel chamber gets constricted and will cause the bullet entering to be undersized before it hits the lands and grooves? That will certainly effect accuracy and velocity and may certainly cause leading issues too. I would imagine that this too could possibly happen even on a barrel that was not canted and I am sure most of us would have no idea of it without some very accurate measurements internally.

So, how is it that in this modern age day of precision manufacturing that canted barrels can leave the factory, honestly it bothers me. There certainly must be a modern day installation method that can be repeated with accuracy in barrel alignment each and every time! Geeeeesh my daughter worked for a company that sold flower seeds and I mean the tiniest ones you could imagine and there was an electronic eye that they pass by that counts them as the go into a packet!

A simple set of hash marks on top of the barrel would be fine! Who the heck at QC can't see straight from crooked? That simpy isn't acceptable.

Oh wait, I have a better idea, sell me the gun in kit form, bring back the quality craftsman of yesteryear and take it to one to have your revolver assembled with pride

I guess I need to buy a toasted out revolver, and learn to remove and replace a barrel so I can better understand what variables there are.......................I do give enormous credit to those gunsmiths our there and machinists that know this stuff, hopefully someday I may get a chance to shadow one and learn!

Comments or info welcomed.............thanks for any contributions here
Karl

 

[andy52]

The only canted barrel I've had wasn't on a revolver. I bought a M1A about 25 years ago that was canted basically the barrel had not been treaded in all the way. It did leave the front sight slightly slanted and the rifle would not feed properly because the feed ramp wasn't lined up with the magazine. After a few calls to Springfield Armory they took it back and fixed the problem.

 

[Triggernosis]

Karl, it IS easy to properly align a barrel on a revolver so that it is not canted - S&W just can't seem to do it every time. There are several methods that could be used to do it and the ultimate test for proper alignment is to simply take the time to look at it to see if it is. I have a feeling that the technicians are simply too rushed to get it right. I mean, look at a video of how the S&W Performance Center guns are built and those techs appear to be in quite a hurry.

 

[dfariswheel]

Until fairly recently, revolver barrels were installed by hand using an action wrench and an educated, experienced "eyeball" of the person doing the fitting.
In later years the factories began rushing the workers, and using less experienced (cheaper) workers.
The result was canted barrels.

Colt was notorious for canted post-1972 heavy, shrouded barrels on the Detective Special and Cobra.
When S&W was owned by some companies they were basically draining the company by pumping out as many revolvers as possible to reap profits, then dumping the company to another raider.
Quality fell badly and canted barrels were often seen.

Today, barrels on the S&W should not be really possible because of the two piece design with the outer shroud that locks onto a "key" on the frame.
How that happens to get canted is a good question.
The shroud is positioned on the frame key and the inner barrel is torqued in place by a power torque tool.
That shouldn't allow canted barrels but.........

As for constricted barrels, that's a cause of over-torquing the barrel and compressing the area under the frame threads.
Colt seldom had that problem because Colt always held their barrels in place by torquing and were totally used to doing it that way.

S&W used to lightly torque their barrels and secure them with a barrel pin through the frame.
When S&W discontinued the frame pin they began using a higher torque.
Since they were not used to that it was common in the early post-pinned barrel guns to see constricted bores from over tightening by personnel.

Apparently S&W had the same problem with the two piece barrels even though they're torqued by a power tool that should give uniform results.
Some early versions were WAY over torqued and the barrels actually broke off in front of the frame because of the high stress.

I'm not sure what the "fix" is except to design a better shroud key system that gives a more positive alignment and a more uniform torquing process.

In some cases a canted barrel is deliberate.
The Ruger SP-101 as example often has a slightly canted barrel, but shoots to center. It appears they shift the barrel slightly to put the fixed sights on target.

In the end canted barrels and constricted bores are a human labor issue, or an equipment setup issue.
If you have a rushed, lesser experienced worker he may over tighten a barrel or get it off top-dead-center.
If the tooling isn't properly set up and thoroughly tested to insure what it's doing is correct, you get the same problems.

 

[MJFlores]

A canted barrel will not shoot straight, and looks stupid. You're mistaking clocked for canted, which looks stupid too. Neither clocked or canted is acceptable, especially at what manufacturers ask for their firearms.

 

[chief38]

I am sure there are a number of reasons why, but at the end of the day the one ultimately responsible for ANY defect on a gun being shipped is the FINAL INSPECTOR. Obviously, the FINAL INSPECTORS who work at the Factory presently are not very good at what they should be doing!

 

[rwsmith]

Their philosophy has changed....

It seems that the user is the final inspector. If it's wrong they'll fix it. If an irate customer doesn't call back, then it's a good gun.

Over and under clocking of the barrel causes the sights to be off. The have like a +/- 5 degree tolerance on the front sight, which I think is very generous. They have a guy with a padded wrench doing the final torque of the barrel, BY EYE. No index marks on the barrel or frame.

The other problem is not drilling and tapping the hole for the barrel straight. Combine a crooked barrel with an overclocked one and you have a real mess.

Yes, we are all concerned about these attitudes but S&W seems satisfied with their present model of doing business. I believe that if you inspect that ACTUAL gun that you are purchasing and refuse to accept 'rejects' you stand a good chance of getting a good gun.

 

[ontargetagain]

A canted barrel will not shoot straight, and looks stupid. You're mistaking clocked for canted, which looks stupid too. Neither clocked or canted is acceptable, especially at what manufacturers ask for their firearms.

Thank you! I was using 'canted' when I should have been saying 'clocked'.
So if you had a 'clocked' & 'canted' you would have a 'Smith' & 'Wesson'...............sorry bad joke I really love my S&W's, though I am hesitant on the newer revolvers. My 686 is a dash-3 and my 625 is a dash-4. My Shield 45 has truly amazed me!

Once again, thanks for the terminology lesson, I learned something again...........and that is appreciated!
Karl

 

[rwsmith]

"It has a barrel, ...

I am sure there are a number of reasons why, but at the end of the day the one ultimately responsible for ANY defect on a gun being shipped is the FINAL INSPECTOR. Obviously, the FINAL INSPECTORS who work at the Factory presently are not very good at what they should be doing!

...trigger, cylinder, hammer and grips....OK, ship it!"

 

[rwsmith]

What REALLY bothers me...

What really bothers me is that one of the premier gun manufacturers for well over a hundred and fifty years can't screw a barrel on straight. We don't have that level of craftsmanship in the US any more.

 

[apollo99]

rwsmith you hit the nail on the head. Trump wants to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.. Now here will be the American workers opportunity to shine. I hope we step up to the challenge, auto, clothing, electronic and the firearm industry.

 

[lebomm]

But I fear that will bode ill for a $2000 Model 10.

Larry

 

[Cal44]

I bought a new M60 a few years ago.

Didn't notice until I got home that the barrel was overclocked a few drgrees.

Sent it to smith and got it back a week later with the barrel "adjusted".

 

[silentflyer]

My only experience has been with a new 686 6" bought by a friends as his 1st wheel gun. With the rear sight cranked all the way to the right it would group 8 to 10" from the bulls eye at 25 yards! With more than one experienced hand gunner shooting it. To there credit S&W did replace the gun, but how did it make it out the door in the first place? The new owner almost swore off revolvers over the poor quality control issues.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I've seen a M67 that had the barrel pointing off to the left. With the rear sight all the way left it still shot far left of that. Turns out the frame was threaded crooked. If you looked at it from the top down you could see that the barrel was at an angle to the frame.

 

[ontargetagain]

But I fear that will bode ill for a $2000 Model 10.

Larry

Well then I would probably opt for the Korth LOL

Karl

 

[WR Moore]

Several comments here, with the caution that I'm speaking of the one piece barrels.

1. If the front sight is 'clocked' close enough for the rear sights to bring POA/POI to the same place, that's really all you need.

2. The adjustable sight guns did have alignment marks: the ribs on barrel & frame.

3. If you haven't tried to do so, hitting that mark isn't as easy as you might think, even with a good dab of moly grease on threads, frame & barrel shoulder. It's all too easy to go from a tad short to a tad over. You're not supposed to perform do overs.

4. Those who are agrieved by minor appearance flaws should take a look at the price difference between production guns and custom guns. Please recall that S&W gets about 33% of MSRP when they sell the product to a distributor.

5. You did do a detailed receipt inspection prior to purchase, right? If not, this is a learning experience. It's why we take new cars for test drives.

 

[ontargetagain]

Several comments here, with the caution that I'm speaking of the one piece barrels.

1. If the front sight is 'clocked' close enough for the rear sights to bring POA/POI to the same place, that's really all you need.

2. The adjustable sight guns did have alignment marks: the ribs on barrel & frame.

3. If you haven't tried to do so, hitting that mark isn't as easy as you might think, even with a good dab of moly grease on threads, frame & barrel shoulder. It's all too easy to go from a tad short to a tad over. You're not supposed to perform do overs.

4. Those who are agrieved by minor appearance flaws should take a look at the price difference between production guns and custom guns. Please recall that S&W gets about 33% of MSRP when they sell the product to a distributor.

5. You did do a detailed receipt inspection prior to purchase, right? If not, this is a learning experience. It's why we take new cars for test drives.

Regarding #5, I did not experience a canted or clocked barrel, just wishing to learn more about it. I am sure there are many folks that purchase their guns online and likely don't do an inspection at delivery nor do they expect that they should have to do it nor are they informed on how to do it.
Regarding cars, if there is an immediate defect on a new car, you have an immediate dealer there to correct the problem, it's not like you have to send your car back to the factory that built it and wait 6 weeks to get it back.................whole different scenario...........

#1 I agree, I am addressing ones that are 'out of acceptance specs'.
#2 my guns are smooth on frame and ribbed ahead on barrel only.
#3 No I have not tried to do so, I would like to learn to do so However if it were my full time job I would certainly expect it to be done properly and if I messed up I would expect the QC guy to catch it and have it properly fixed before I sent it to a customer!
#4 Accepting minor flaws is all in the eye of the beholder, we each have different levels of acceptance, some can acceptance cosmetic flaws and not mechanical and others perhaps vice versa. I understand nothing is perfect in production run items and custom guns are a luxury for most of us.

Thank you for your comments
Karl

 

[rwsmith]

It's really sad that...

rwsmith you hit the nail on the head. Trump wants to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.. Now here will be the American workers opportunity to shine. I hope we step up to the challenge, auto, clothing, electronic and the firearm industry.

....manufacturers here have jobs, but not people with the technical skills to fill them.

 

[rwsmith]

Man, you remember....

But I fear that will bode ill for a $2000 Model 10.

Larry

....when you could buy a 686 for $700 and we thought that was a lot of money.