Explain this "squib" ??

[exnodak]

I had a weird thing happen at the range this morning. Pistol is a S&W M&P9. Load was 125 grain lead RN - 3.6 grains Bullseye - CCI primer - RWS case.
The slide failed to open and lock, and it took some unusual force to open it. Upon opening, the case was still stuck in the chamber, but it pried out easily with a little screwdriver assistance on the rim.
Upon removing the case, I noticed that the unburned powder charge was in the chamber, and the bullet was visible, but stuck. I popped the bullet out easily by hand with a wooden dowel. It appears that the primer, although lightly dimpled, failed to detonate. Since the primer failed, and the powder did not burn, where did the force come from to stick the bullet in the chamber?
I found the 9mm RWS cases to have extremely tight primer pockets, and this primer was probably somewhat mashed into the pocket. That could explain failure to detonate. Still, what caused the bullet to be expelled from the case, and why was the slide so difficult to open?

 

[GyMac]

It sounds like your bullet barely entered the chamber if it came out so easily. Maybe the bullet entered far enough to be stuck in the chamber, but when the case was extracted it left the bullet behind.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Had it happen many times over the years.

Your primer DID detonate - evidence was the bullet in the tube.

Powder did not combust completely.

This happens with too light a load from time to time. The efficiency of a burn is in part determined by chamber pressure. Too little and you get incomplete ignition.

Try loading more from the middle of the data and see where that takes you.

Also important is the resizing and crimp. Without enough momentary grip on the bullet, you open yourself up to this issue.

Add them together, light crimp and unsized brass with a light load and there you have a major potential for incomplete ignition.

 

[Titegroups]

Sounds odd but I don't think it was lack of powder. 3.6g of bullseye in a 9 case should be more than plenty. I think the light strike on the primer is your hint.

 

[Bluelou]

I'm with snapping twig on this one.he explained perfectly.

 

[Titegroups]

Maybe its more like you thought you had 3.6g in there.

 

[exnodak]

I removed the primer from the case and inspected it. It definitely did not fire. The inside looks just like a new one. So what forced the bullet out and into the throat?? I am stumped.

 

[Beemer-mark]

Are you bullets loaded out too far? The bullet might have been "forced" into the lands. Nothing fired, the bullet was just stuck in the begining of the barrel lands.

 

[Alk8944]

Beemer-Mark has it. Bullet profile wrong for the gun or loaded too long. When the cartridge was chambered bu the slide the bullet stuck in the throat hard enough that when you pried the case out it left the bullet in the throat.

When you are loading ammunition be sure it passes what has been called the "plop test". Remove the barrel to use as a cartridge gauge and drop a test cartridge into the chamber. The cartridge should drop in with a distinct "plop" or "plunk" and completely so it is flush with the barrel breech or hood. When you turn the barrel up the cartridge should fall out freely. If neither happens, seat bullets deeper.

 

[papajohn428]

I had a similar oddity happen with a 45 Auto awhile back. What sounded like a dud made me stop and check the chamber. At that point I noticed that the gun wasn't fully in battery when I dropped the hammer. I pinch-checked the chamber, and could see loose powder in the action. The bullet was a half-inch ahead of the chamber, wedged in but not jammed. The primer showed a mild strike near the perimeter, not centered.

I was convinced the light/off center firing pin strike had resulted in a less-than-normal primer spark, enough to eject the bullet out of the case, but not enough to ignite the powder charge.

Well, maybe not. As an afterthought, I re-chambered the same round a few weeks later, and dropped the hammer. BLAM! Both cats left the room in a hurry, as the primer fired with all the power of a fresh one.

So what the heck happened inside the gun with the light strike, and how did the bullet get blown out of the case? I can't convince myself that only a small portion of the priming compound detonated, but the rest didn't until it was hit again weeks later. Been scratching my head over this one ever since.

 

[Hondo44]

You turned your firearm into an inertia bullet puller, that's all that happened.

The bullet was already out of the case when struck by the firing pin. The abrupt stop of the cartridge which probably had an uncrimped or light crimp and didn't chamber, flung the bullet.

 

[Hondo44]

i feel that a primer will fire or not fire. i think that the primer hole was pluged with something or the hole is defective.

But sometimes when they fire, they only go phzzzzz. That's a squib primer.

 

[Titegroups]

Sounds like we missed a day at reloading 101.

 

[exnodak]

I think that Beemer-Mark has the explanation that makes the most sense to me. Thank you sir.
titegroup - was your comment about reloading 101 directed at me?

 

[cotton]

I suspect the reloads, possibly oal to long forcing projectile into rifling therby leaving bullet behind on opening slide also case not compleatly resized causing to be forced into chamber causing hard extraction also weak taper crimp ,I would re ck everthing on that load. just my 2c PS
possible over crimped therby causing brass case to go to far into barrel inhibiting firing pin reach to primer or the oppisite failure to complete battery and weak disconnector .. aint this fun chasing the gremlins good luck and safe shooting I know there are experts on here getting a chuckle out of everthing I type .. still fun though

 

[Maximumbob54]

Voodoo.

Witchcraft.

Yes we can.

Blame what you will.

Some things remain a mystery why they happen. Casting and reloading is for all the instructions and books still not an exact science. Maybe if you had a full lab at your disposal and plenty of time you could figure this one out. I would just move on from here and double check my reloading steps.

 

[fredj338]

Stuck bullet, non firing event, your OAL is too long. Use your removed bbl & drop test a round, If it doesn't seat flsuh w; the hood, it's too long for your bbl, regardless of any data you have AOL is ALWAYS bulelt & gun specific. I would also recommend several "better: powders fo rthe 9mm, but that is another thread.

 

[Neumann]

It could have been set-back, due to poorly crimped or sized brass. The bullet was too long and jammed in the rifling when chambered. The lip of the case would not be firmly against the step in the chamber. A light strike might result due to the cushioning effect of the case slipping forward on the bullet when fired. In this example, the strike is way off center, indicating the bullet was not completely chambered. The strike is not over the center of the anvil, which could also contribute to a misfire.

It could also have been over-crimped, so that the case would not seat properly, too deep in the chamber. This would result in a light strike and tend to jam the bullet into the rifling.

Check the OAL of your reloads, and whether they are properly crimped. You can buy headspace gauges from Dillon (and others), or use the barrel outside of the gun as a gauge block. The base of the case should be flush or no more than 0.005" below the hood, and drop easily and solidly into place against the step in the chamber.

 

[exnodak]

I found the answer to what happened.
Just to back up a click, I originally worked up this load for a practice load in my Ruger SR9c. It has been very good - accurate and functions perfectly over about 1300 rounds so far. The loaded round passes my drop and plunk test in the barrel with flying colors.
I don't shoot the M&P very much, but my wife got interested in shooting it, so we went out with the same reloads I use in the Ruger. That is when the glitch occurred. I didn't suspect that the cartridge was too long because I had previously fired a few hundred rounds of that reload in the M&P with no problems. The round worked so well in the Ruger that I neglected to use the barrel in the M&P to check it out. Never assume!
To continue my investigation, I did the drop test in the barrel of the M&P, and sure enough, the COL is too long! Not long enough to prevent every cartridge from working, but the one that stuck must have been slightly longer than the ones that worked. In most cases, the slide must have closed with enough force to go into battery, pushing the bullet into the lands.
I am not green at this reloading business. I have reloaded many thousands of rounds of rifle and handgun ammo for over 50 years, and have never had a serious mishap. I can count all the handgun squibs on one hand. Complacency causes problems!
Incidentally, I realize that there are powders that are better suited for the 9mm, but in the interest of keeping life simple, I have been using Bullseye for all my practice loads in 9mm, .38, and .45ACP.
My thanks to all the forum members who gave advice and suggestions. This forum is the place to go for constructive comment from a lot of great people.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for getting to us with a wrap up.

Since only one round gave problems, do you think it could possibly have slipped the bullet slightly from recoil while sitting in the magazine? Was it the last round or close to the last to be chambered?