Extractor loose on model 617

[sdk]

Hello,
Just purchased a "like new" 4" S&W 617 revolver that was manufactured about 1991. I took it to the range yesterday and it fired very well. However, after about 100 rounds I noticed that the cylinder was getting a little more difficult to open. After getting it home I noticed that the extractor rod had worked itself loose so I proceeded to tighten it by turning the ejector rod counter clockwise. I didn't want to use pliers on the rod so I tightened it the best I could by hand. While doing this I noticed that the knurled tip of the extractor rod already had tool marks on it which tells me that this loosening probably had occurred before and the previous owner obviously used a plier on it. It's also possible that the previous owner used the plier to unloosen the rod to remove the cylinder to give it a thorough cleaning. This gun appeared to have never been fired (even factory fired) which is unlikely. Considering the otherwise perfect appearance of this revolver, I want to replace the marred ejector rod with a new one. I'm reasonably sure that the part is available because I also have a current production 617 (about 2 years old) and the ejector rod on it appears exactly the same as the one on this older 617. Can the ejector rod simply be replaced with a correct replacement or is the ejector rod hand fitted to the yoke at the factory? It would seem like a simple task to unscrew the old ejector rod and screw in a new one, but if the parts are hand fitted as a sub assembly I don't want to do this. Also, once the extractor rod is replaced, how do I prevent it from loosening again? Quite frankly, I've been looking for this revolver for a long time and am very willing to send it back to Smith & Wesson (at my expense) to have this done if doing this myself is not recommended. Thanks in advance for the replies.
sdk.

 

[scooter123]

The extractor rod has an EXTREMELY fine pitch thread that is VERY EASY to cross thread, so odds are pretty good your previous owner buggered up the threads on both the extractor rod and the Star. With that in mind I would let the factory fix it, the extractor star is typically considered a Factory Fit Only part.

Unfortunately because of the obvious User Damage it's unlikely that it will be covered under warranty but it's worth asking about. If not covered under the Warranty you will be placed at the end of the Repair Line and likely won't see your revolver back for several months.

As for fitting a new extractor rod into an undamaged extractor star, the fitting part is actually quite easy, you just stone the tip back a small amount so that the center pin is forward of the surrounding rod when pushed fully forward. The biggest issue will be getting the new extractor rod started in the star. As noted this is an extremely fine pitch thread very easy to cross thread. What I have found works best is to turn the rod in the LOOSEN direction until you feel the starting point of the thread "drop" into the female thread starting point. Just note that it only drops about 0.008 inch and it requires a bit of a delicate "feel" for something like this. Once you feel the thread on the rod "drop" into proper engagement you can then spin the extractor rod in between thumb and forefinger. WARNING, if it stops spinning easily after 1 to 1 1/2 turns you have a Cross Thread started and need to back out and try again. If you force it you WILL strip the threads in both the extractor star and the extractor rod.

Now, one final note. To protect the locating features on the extractor star it's essential to place a minimum of 3 fired cases in the cylinder when you to to tighten the extractor rod up good and snug. Since I tend to take a belt and suspenders approach to a task like this I just fill the culinder with fired cases. Tip, always save your fired cases. The brass is not only of value but you can use an unstruck area of the rim as a snap cap to test for function.

 

[sdk]

Thank you for your very informative reply. I didn't mention in the original post that when I noticed the ejector rod had loosened, I turned it clockwise to tighten it. This resulted in the ejector rod unscrewing completely out of the mating part. I very gingerly restarted the ejector rod going counter clockwise and it threaded very smoothly back down to it's home position. I'm fairly sure that there is no cross threading. For cosmetic reasons and considering the beautiful condition of the gun, I'm going to order a new ejector rod. I'm seriously considering applying some low or mid strength loctite to the thread to help insure that it won't loosen up again. The loctite will be grade 222 or 242 which allows the parts to be unscrewed if necessary. To prevent damaging the ejector rod during tightening I've seen it suggested that a wooden cloths pin along with a pair of pliers be used. Thanks again for your reply and please comment if you think I'm making a mistake by using loctite.
sdk

 

[Sconnie]

First I start with...I know nothing about gunsmithing. But I am fascinated by those who do. When I saw your post I immediately thought of the Midway USA guy who has Youtube videos on gunsmith topics.

He has one on repairing a bent rod that shows loosing the rod in a padded vise. But at about 2 minutes into this revolver cleaning video he talks about tightening a loose extractor rod. For what it's worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAZOr33nUo

And yea, easy for a gunsmith but... I suppose that is why there are gunsmiths, eh?

 

[sdk]

Great video. Thank you.
sdk

 

[scooter123]

I use and old belt and plyers to protect the extractor rod. Fold it over the knurling and squeeze with the plyers and you don't leave any hint of damage. As for Locktite, it's not needed and it WILL interfere with finding the starting point of the thread if you ever have to remove the extractor rod. When I lived in the Cleveland area we called these methods of repair Polish Engineering. Further South they blame Bubba, the Hillbilly.

Remember, it's a very fine pitch thread and it won't shoot loose once it's properly tightened. As for how tight they need to be, by my "calibrated" than I would guess 15 ft.lbs. or so. I would recommend you sneak up on it and spend some range time testing the tightness by shooting the revolver. Once it's tight enough it won't shoot loose and you stop at that point.

 

[Lou_NC]

A padded vice works great for this operation, but another approach (and the one that I now use) is to chuck the ejector rod in the jaws of a drill press (just as you would a drill bit). Be sure you tighten the chuck well so that the rod doesn't slip. Grasp the chuck in one hand and the cylinder in the other hand, and tighten gently but firmly. Of course, before you tighten, ensure that you have the three (or more) spent cases or dummy cartridges in the chambers. Fired cases do not usually drop out of the chambers for me when the rod is chucked in the drill press, but if they are loose, you can hold them in the chambers with the same hand that you use to grasp the cylinder.

When I first heard about this approach to tightening the ejector rod, I was skeptical, and certain it would mar a blued ejector rod in some way. But it never has in my experience. The key is ensuring that the chuck is tight and there is no way the ejector rod (or drill bit) will slip in the chuck. One nice thing about the chuck is that it applies pressure in three directions, unlike the vice which applies force in two directions only. I've always worried about "crushing" the ejector rod in a vice or with pliers, but that's never happened to me either.

If you don't own a drill press, you can also use a surplus drill chuck that you may have laying around your garage for the same purpose. Years ago I replaced a standard Jacobs chuck on a battery powered drill with a hand-tightened chuck, so I can also use that spare chuck as a "tool".

You can also use a chuck that is mounted on a portable drill to do this as well. Just don't plug the drill in, or if it's a battery powered drill, ensure that you have the switch in the off position, or remove the battery before you use it.

The nice thing about the drill press chuck is that they're usually quite large and thus you can insert either the entire length of the ejector rod into the jaws (to get a good grip), or very close to it. You definitely don't want to do this with a small or cheap drill chuck.

Lou

 

[tomcatt51]

A padded vice works great for this operation, but another approach (and the one that I now use) is to chuck the ejector rod in the jaws of a drill press (just as you would a drill bit).

+1 This is probably THE BEST WAY. Doesn't have to be in a drill press. Any chuck (preferably the kind that uses a chuck key) is fine.

The only thing "fitted" about the rod is it's length. With the center pin pushed in flush with the ratchet hub the center pin should SLIGHTLY protrude from the rod. Chuck it in your drill motor again (turned on this time) and spin it holding a file against it to trim it to length. Polish with 320 or 400 grit sandpaper.

Some of my extractor rods stay tight without being Loctited. Some just won't. The ones that won't get a drop a 222 Purple Loctite. 242 Blue is really stronger than you want, specially if you have really cleaned the threads...

 

[sdk]

Thanks for the replies. Initially I'll probably take scooter123's advice and not use any Loctite. However, if it continues to loosen I will then go to the Loctite. My question now is which one of the loctites will work best on this stainless steel gun? I read somewhere that the 222 requires an activator or primer to work on stainless steel. Thanks again.
sdk

 

[tomcatt51]

I read somewhere that the 222 requires an activator or primer to work on stainless steel.

222 works fine. Final cleaning of the parts with acetone was always the correct "priming" procedure.

 

[sdk]

Thank you. If it comes to using loctite it will then be necessary to remove the extractor star from the cylinder to clean the female threads. Once the extractor rod is unscrewed does the extractor star pull straight out of the cylinder? Thanks again.
sdk

 

[tomcatt51]

Once the extractor rod is unscrewed does the extractor star pull straight out of the cylinder?

Yes. .

 

[CarrieC]

Check out "Vicesmith" and whatever method you use make sure you fill the cylinder with snap caps or spent brass. Loctite should not be necessary.

 

[brucev]

Have had the ejector rod back out on a couple of S&W revolvers as well as from time to time a sideplate screw. Cleaning them thoroughly w/ acetone and then installing w/ a proper screw driver or using a properly padded pair of plairs w/ the ejector rod has given good results. For those where that approach did not work, I use Locktite 222. It has proven completely effective in every single instance where it has been used. Thoroughly clean the threads and sideplate or extractor star. Use a very small amount of 222, it doesn't take much. Just enough to dampen the threads is sufficient. After installation, leave everything alone overnight. I've not ever had any part thus installed ever come loose under use. When I've needed to remove a sideplate screw for cleaning, a normal screw driver used with normal pressure is all that is needed. There is no reason to fiddle around with loose screws, ejector rods, etc. trying to get them to stay put and hoping they won't come loose. Locktite works, period. The 222 is easy to work with and allows you to fix the problem w/o permanently altering your revolver or risking over tightening a part. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

 

[sdk]

Thank you to everyone for the replies. I will probably first do this without loctite and then if it loosens again I'll go back and apply some 222 as suggested. Thanks again to all.
sdk

 

[sdk]

Update

I purchased a replacement ejector rod (to replace the one with damaged knurls) from Brownells and purchased a vicesmith from Midway. The ejector rod fit perfectly right out of the packaging and required no stoning or filing. Although I planned to not use loctite initially, I couldn't resist the temptation and after cleaning and inspecting the threads used the 222 grade. Took the gun to the range this past Saturday and shot 225 rounds and it hasn't loosened at all. Normally it would have loosened enough to cause the cylinder to start sticking after about 100 rounds so I'm fairly sure that this is permanantly fixed. Once again I want to thank everyone for their input as it was extremely helpful.
sdk

 

[CarrieC]

sdk glad it worked out for you. Keep that wheel turning!

 

[chief38]

If tightened properly NO Locktite is needed. I always use a Drill Press Chuck (no power of course) and empties to loosen or tighten the EJ/R onto the Cylinder. There ARE times I do remove the EJ/R for deep cleaning and would not want to deal with Locktite to take it apart. You need an "experienced feel" to know how tight is tight enough and how not to tighten it too much. Like I said, if done properly, they don't loosen by themselves under normal use.

Note: if you do use the Drill Press Chuck method, chuck the EJ/R close to the Cylinder so you don't bugger up the knurling and so there is no chance to bend it. Tighten the Chuck snugly but DON'T Gorilla tighten it! Just tight enough so it doesn't spin in the Chuck. As long as your DP Chuck is not gouged up there will be no marks on the EJ/R. Remember ...... LEFT HAND Thread and USE EMPTIES in the Cylinder.

 

[sdk]

Initially I planned to not use loctite. Please read my earlier posts. However, considering the use that I give my guns, I don't plan to remove the ejector rod again (hopefully), so I used a low strength loctite to help insure that it never loosens again. If for some reason this needs to be undone I'll still be able to do so. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
sdk

 

[sdk]

Additional question

I noticed that if I open the cylinder and and grab the tip of the ejector rod (at the knurled end) and shake it, the rod has considerable play that appears to be the result of the fit between the yoke and the ejector rod. The ejector rod is still tightly screwed into the ejector. Before replacing the ejector rod I noticed the first ejector rod had the same amount of play. This has nothing to do with run out but appears to be the result of the fit between the ejector rod and the hole in the yoke. How close should that fit be? Thanks.
sdk