Factory engraved 1903 first change target AND it’s likely the work of Oscar Young!!!

[opoefc]

Back to top. Jim, did you get my PM? Ed.

 

[45Wheelgun]

Just spill the beans Ed - What do you know?

 

[loknload]

Very nice,,,,,interesting story

 

[Göring's S&W]

Thanks all for the compliments! Its certainly one of my more interesting pieces in my collection. Hopefully I land a few more factory engraved pieces. I know many of you have several but for me, this one is my first and hopefully not my last!

Ed - I got the PM, sorry for the delay in response! Thank you! I had no idea that this gun was made for Teddy Roosevelt! I love it now even more!

 

[jmace57]

And a style of SAT I've never seen!

That is a beauty, and thanks for the informative post!

 

[wordsmith]

Regarding your first p'graph comments as to ID'ing the engraver, it's not hard at all in the case of the Young's, if one is at all familiar with the styles of the father and both sons. More especially since they were the only engravers on staff at the S&W factory in the time period of this particular gun's mfg. That Eugene Young only worked there occasionally leaves us with the fact that the majority by far of engraved S&W's completed 1870-1893 were done by either Gustave (d. 1895) or Oscar, who worked until 1912. Jim's gun is without question the hand of Oscar Young, evidenced by observations of pulls from his pattern book which is still in the factory's possession.... thanks to Roy Jinks careful preservation efforts in years past.

David

Very nice find. Early lettered engraved examples have to be a rarity.

As far as pegging the actual engraving to an individual,,it's very difficult especially on graded factory work as you are looking at a pattern cut .
The very purpose of it was to get all of the output to look as near the same as possible dispite the work being done by perhaps dozens of different engravers.
An approved pattern would be cut by one of the better engravers on the staff, but then patterns or 'lifts' would be made of it and depending on the grade, journeyman or even apprentice engravers often cut the vast majority of the guns produced.
Intricate patterns, inlay, images & figures would often be set aside for one of the so called master engravers though journeyman would cut them as well. It all depended on their skill at that time.
The grade shown is not a particular difficult pattern to cut,,no offense to the gun or the engravers. It is a nicely designed pattern, but with the idea to cover a certain amt of area in a certain amt of time ($$).

When using lifts taken from the factory approved pattern gun,,the engravers will, with any amount of skill reproduce the same engraving as is on the pattern gun.
The lifts were simple card-stock patterns made by burnishing them into the surface. A dampened pattern side and a touch of layout wax on the back to prevent tearing while being burnished in.
It takes only a minute or two to make a 'lift'. The lifts are useable and reusable indeffinetly if handled with any amt of reasonable care.
Transfer is quick and simple with the surface dotted with transfer wax and the card swiped with a charcoal pencil.
The lift is then set down on the surface and very lightly burnished,,even your finger pressure over it will do it,,and the pattern w/ all the finest detailis transfered.
Ready to cut. Follow the pattern and reproduce the master work.

Allow your own cutting characteristics, likes, dislikes,, to enter into it, and the pattern will begin to change and become identifiable with the engraver if they do much work at all. Sometimes you can see that,,other times not at all.
It takes a very close examination of known work by an individual to compare to. Even then, engravers change their styles even a tiny amt over time. Sometimes by choice,,sometimes not. Simple age can cause differences in the looks of the same engravers work.
Plus the engraver strives to get better as they progress, not stay static.
So you expect a change in their cutting quality as they get into their trade.

I've often seen and read letters from experts attesting to the fact that a certain piece, though not signed or papered, is the work of this engraver or that one. I can't recall an engraver with any work experience going out on a limb and doing that. It's just too hard to tell by just looking at the engraving and too easy for it to be someone elses work. Plenty of skilled engravers out there, both then and now.
JMO

 

[2152hq]

.... Jim's gun is without question the hand of Oscar Young, evidenced by observations of pulls from his pattern book which is still in the factory's possession....
David

I get your entire point and it's well taken being a factory engraved gun.

But 'without question the hand of Oscar Young' is an awfully strong commitment when there is no evidence, paperwork to support it.,,and perhaps there is somewhere. I hope so.
At this point I'd stay with the OP's opening remark that the gun is 'likely engraved by Oscar' till proven further beyond the speculation.

Comparing 'pulls' & existing engraving can be interesting, informative, educational, ect. It does not however positively ID an engraver.
It's not the fingerprint type match to an individual 'hand' it's been made out to be at times.

Another persons engraving can be remarkably easy to copy.
Being able to engrave well is the trick you have to learn however.



Great revolver,,interesting discussion..

 

[Göring's S&W]

David et al,

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if for some reason Oscar Young did NOT do my gun, didn't then Eugene do the engraving by default? Based on what we know about the history of the S&W engravers, and what we know about my gun, is there any possibility other than the Young brothers? My understanding is if not Oscar then surely it was Eugene although I too believe it was Oscar. Oscar evidently did do much more work than brother Eugene from what I have read on the two just as David said.

 

[handejector]

What a great little gun!
I love it.
IMO, it is Oscar.

I am by no means an authority on engraving, nor a multitude of engravers. Rarely would I even think of arguing with 2152 about the topic.
I have a good eye that picks up differences and similarities well. No boast, just fact. Hard to explain. Oscar was like a machine- his cuts have a style and a uniformity that Eugene doesn't have. It is kind of like I have a transparent pic of his scrolls stored in my mind, and when I lay it over your gun or others that he did, they match!

He may be my favorite engraver.
He imparted a simple elegance that is not overstated like some of the more complex engraving. Some is so complex and detailed it almost goes over the top of the curve and approaches tawdry. Dare I say that too complex gets 'pimpish' looking?

But of course, we must leave each to his own preferences. I like the simple elegance. After all, we're talking about guns, not perfume bottles in a French palace.

 

[Göring's S&W]

You know Lee, I have taken nearly 3 mos to think about it and I have to say, I agree with your line of thinking. I can of course appreciate the work of Rentzschke and other super detailed engravers, and their guns, but sometimes in life we learn that less is more. I think my 1903 does exemplify that philosophy quite well. The engraving is tasteful, not overly ornate, the coverage is good but not every nook and cranny, etc. The gun has an elegance to it while still maintaining its firearm status vs becoming a piece of "firing" jewelry. I was fortunate to get this piece and very fortunate that it lettered as is.

 

[RevolverDad]

Where would one send their S&W piece now-a-days for such work?

I have a Victory revolver with the U.S. Navy/Army markings removed that I shoot, carry and use that I'd consider doing some work, too. I also my just find another Model 10 with less historical significance to add some imbelishment to.

Thanks for any info, in advance...

 

[Hermit375]

engraving

Personally I find tracing things like this-- imagine over 100 years has passed and to have such a reputation and style of work recognized for his work is style of engraving is very deep in depth compared to others you showed. As styles progressed through the years like scrolls and edges towards seems more rounded. Who could say 100+ years later something you did would be recognized by a style or shapes? People then had a huge sense of pride in their work - fit and finish for that time makes numbers of guns out today look like junk considering what they had to work with. the way the storage box was built someone took the time to hand build that box and it shows it's still here. How much of today's will be here 100+ years from now?? Thanks for sharing as the history evolved and families took part very fascinating. IMO

 

[handejector]

If anyone has a screw for the rear sight, please let me know!

I don't have time to read the whole thread right now, so this may have already been addressed, or you may have discovered it yourself-

In that era, the elevation screw is in the FRAME, not the sight leaf.
Your screw is probably there, UNDER the sight, like this one-

 

[Ed Fowler]

Good thinking putting the adjustment screw underneath the sight!

Great thread, thanks for sharing!

 

[S&W SS Revolvers]

Thank you very much for starting such an interesting and totally wonderful thread. Congratulations on the excellent find. Thanks to all of you for the ongoing education. This is the only thing I get to do on a regular basis that takes me away from work.

Many blessings to all. Brian

 

[Sodapop69]

I've come across a revolver which I believe to have been engraved by Eugen Young

I am picking up this revolver I believe engraved by Eugene Young. I can only go by examples of his work I find on the internet. This is a 1915-16 S&W Target 38 Special. I'm working on getting a letter. Looking for your opinion (& others who would like to share their input).

 

[Sodapop69]

Try this link:
https://www.nrablog.com/articles/20...sevelts-smith-wesson-new-model-no-3-revolver/

Very interesting. Very similar work done to your pistol, Roosevelt's & mine.

 

[Göring's S&W]

I am picking up this revolver I believe engraved by Eugene Young. I can only go by examples of his work I find on the internet. This is a 1915-16 S&W Target 38 Special. I'm working on getting a letter. Looking for your opinion (& others who would like to share their input).

Nice revolver! The gun does look to be factory engraved, and likely Eugene Young as you stated. Oscar Young died in 1912 and the third brother, Alfred, did not engrave firearms. AFAIK, he only engraved tools and other machines for the factory. In case anyone is wondering, Gustav (the father) died in 1895. The grips are much later than the revolver.

 

[Sodapop69]

Turns out the revolver is 1917 and the the grips, as I'm told, are 1930's. I don't know much about these grips: real or 'fake'. Back of grips don't have any markings. One panel looks to have a finish on the backside, only about 1/2 done with varnish, stain or whatever.