Fake RM... #2948 or #2498?

[silicosys4]

Hello everyone, thank you for having me,
I come to you with a gun that I was at first excited to come across as a potential barn find, but as I look closer at what I've got in front of me I'm finding some possible red flags, and I'd appreciate the help of a few more learned eyes and opinions.
At this point i'm about 60/40 that its a fake.

Here are the pictures i've got to work with











So here are the red flags...

The serial number on the butt is very deeply struck. I've never seen one that deeply struck on a S&W.

The registration number in the frame of 2948 does not match the registration number listed in SWCA's database for that serial number 53583. 53583 is listed as Reg #2498...the middle two numbers reversed.
Typo?
Or faked RM with restamped serial numbers?

 

[silicosys4]

 

[murphydog]

Welcome! The gun appears to be an original prewar .357 Magnum; it would be very difficult to alter new parts or reproduce them to mimic one of these.

One possibility is the registration number reported to the gun is a typo in the database. I cannot see the serial number in the images but they were deeply stamped in this time frame, and a 3 can easily look like an 8, or a 5 like a 6, or a 6 like an 8.

The letter from Roy Jinks appears to predate the official factory letters. If you have the gun an up to date letter of authenticity would clarify things, and the "deep dive" search will probably find other factory documents related to this particular gun.

swhistoricalfoundation.com/letters/

 

[silicosys4]

Welcome! The gun appears to be an original prewar .357 Magnum; it would be very difficult to alter new parts or reproduce them to mimic one of these.

One possibility is the registration number reported to the gun is a typo in the database. I cannot see the serial number in the images but they were deeply stamped in this time frame, and a 3 can easily look like an 8, or a 5 like a 6, or a 6 like an 8.

The letter from Roy Jinks appears to predate the official factory letters. If you have the gun an up to date letter of authenticity would clarify things, and the "deep dive" search will probably find other factory documents related to this particular gun.

swhistoricalfoundation.com/letters/

Hello and thank you,
I do know that mistakes in data entry happen, even at the factory.
I just picked up a 17-2 that has such an error. I suppose I could post a thread about that as well.

 

[mchom]

It looks like a legit pre war magnum to me. But I’m on my phone and I can’t zoom in to see details very well. Curious if the hammer has the concentric grooves? The rear sight appears pre war appropriate. I can’t see ejector knob very well. Nor can I zoom on side plate fit or logo for signs of refinish. Not sure if just my phone or need clearer pics. The serial stamp on bottom seems ok compared to mine but again a little fuzzy on my phone. The stocks I can’t tell if they were modified original pre war magnas or later post war. And Not sure if Mr. Jinks was embossing letters during this time period. Is your letter is embossed ?
The experts will comment soon but unless I’m missing something it seems to be a legit pre war magnum.

 

[RM Vivas]

The order form for #2948 shows a 6.5 inch barrel, Call gold bead front sight, square notch rear and MAGNA stocks ordered by Arizona Supply Co.

I could not find any info on Reg. 2498.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[Modified]

It looks like a pre-war magnum with post war grips on it.

They aren't "faked" by anyone. They are valuable, but not valuable enough to justify the level of work required to fake the work you see here.

That's not to say that a gun may not be "right" as in all factory original. These guns saw a lot of use and repairs and upgrades. The grips in this case are certainly something from after the war.

If the gun was a good price, or is a good price, its absolutely something I would snap up. Looks like a real nice shooter grade registered magnum from these somewhat fuzzy pictures.

 

[silicosys4]

Well, I don't know what a fair price would be considered,
I do know that this one is offered at a price I can manage, at a finish level that wouldn't preclude shooting it occasionally.
although its cheaper by almost half of any other I can find available...with RM's seeming to start at about $4k
So whatever its actual value is, I suppose its worth the cost of entry to me.

 

[murphydog]

Well, I don't know what a fair price would be considered,
I do know that this one is offered at a price I can manage, at a finish level that wouldn't preclude shooting it occasionally.
although its cheaper by almost half of any other I can find available...with RM's seeming to start at about $4k
So whatever its actual value is, I suppose its worth the cost of entry to me.

If you are stating the gun in question is for sale at or about $2000. and presuming it is not some type of online scam, that would be an excellent price.

 

[rct269]

Given you cannot make out the serial number on the butt, you'll find it on the rear of the cylinder, in the ejector rod shroud on the barrel, and on the yoke (viewed through a chamber hole or by removing it). If there is any deviation in these numbers, the gun is a "put together"------as in junk.

If you need more or less instantaneous confirmation the serial number/registration number combination is kosher, send me a PM---and I'll send one back---with a name and phone number. Otherwise, get a letter from the S&W Historical Foundation---see their section here on the forum.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[lestert357]

I apparently transposed two digits in the REG# when I originally entered this gun into the database. I also corrected the front sight and barrel length entries. The database entry for this gun now appears as follows:

 

[RM Vivas]

That's not to say that a gun may not be "right" as in all factory original. These guns saw a lot of use and repairs and upgrades. The grips in this case are certainly something from after the war.

This is a very valid point and one that I want to address.

I spent several months going through several thousand pages of documents to analyze the first 500 Registered Magnums (this article appears in the most recent SWCA Journal).

One of the takeaways I got was that unless you go for a Deep Dive AND the documents are mostly complete, its entirely possible for a 'factory' gun to be mistaken for a 'put together/lunch box special".

You find a nice RM and order a letter. Your factory letter shows a delivery to Joe Blow Gunshop on 11AUG35. The letter says 8.75-inch, McGivern front sight U-notch rear, Magnas and grip adapter. Your gun is a 4-inch (barrel s/n matches frame), Baughman front sight with matching rear site. You feel crushed because you bought, at best, a parts gun or worse, a fake.

Or did you?

You ordered a Factory letter and it shows how the gun SHIPPED. If you ordered a Deep Dive you'd have gotten a copy of the letter from Deputy Dawg of East Jesus, KY where he writes to S&W that he bought the gun second hand from a guy at a gun club and could you please take the 8.75 inch barrel and shorten it to 4 inches so he can use it as a duty gun and put one of them fancy 'bowman' ramps on it like the FBI gets? You'd also have gotten a copy of S&W's response saying that for $3.50 they'll cut the barrel to whatever length he'd like and for another couple bucks deal with the sights.

There would be a copy of the Railway Express tag showing the gun coming from and then being returned to the Podunk County Sheriffs office.

The amount of guns that I saw that went back to the factory for -dramatic- reconfiguring was signifigant. If you don't do a Deep Dive on a multi-thousand dollar gun, you might never know all the details. I saw many long barrel target guns that went back to be shortened because a new buyer wanted to make it into a duty gun. Makes sense; man wants the top of the line gun but can't afford it. So he waits until they hit the used gun market, he scoops one up cheap and pays a few bucks to have it re-configured.

Even if you have the Reg Certificate (lucky!), that could be the second or third one issued for that gun. S&W would re-issue them when a gun changed hands if the new owner wanted one and the old cert was sent in.

My point is that SWHF has (usually) more data on an RM than would normally be found in just a factory letter. If you're gonna drop a couple mortgage payment on an RM, dig a wee bit deeper and do a Deep Dive. If nothing comes up (and that happens) at least you'll have tried.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[lestert357]

As to the points addressed by RM Vivas in post# 12 above, the way I try to address this in the Pre-War .357 Magnum database is to enter the original (1st time) as shipped factory configuration in the applicable fields (i.e.; BBL, FS, RS, HBH, Grips, Finish), and then use the Ship To/Comments field to record the current configuration (if changed) and/or subsequent factory modifications. Having said that please bear in mind that there were over 1500 entries already in the database before I was given the curator task, so I cannot guarantee that all entries are as I have described here. Additionally, always consider that the information in the database is only as good as the documentation and/or pictures that I have been provided or had access to.

 

[Truckman]

...dig a wee bit deeper and do a Deep Dive. If nothing comes up (and that happens) at least you'll have tried.

That's good advice for anyone historically minded (such as myself) and explains why I pester Mike Helms about my letter file even when I probably already have everything available......Ben

 

[RM Vivas]

Here's a fellow who thought about the future RM collector and decided to clear up any misunderstandings:
(courtesy SWHF)

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[Hair Trigger]

Here's a fellow who thought about the future RM collector and decided to clear up any misunderstandings:
(courtesy SWHF)

Best,
RM Vivas

This example also goes to show that the discrepancy in Registration number on OP's letter vs. the one on his RM is most likely a typo.

Murphydog, in post #3 above, mentions Mr.Jinks' letter predates S&W factory letters, I think he means it predates SWHF Letters. I have a letter similar to the OP's letter, with the S&W letterhead and not the SWHF letterhead, that is dated three years earlier than OP's letter (mine is for a M520). It's at least interesting that Mr. Jinks had moved (I would assume an upward movement) from Manager Consumer Relations to Services Operation Manager along with a continued position as Historian.

 

[22hipower]

One of the takeaways I got was that unless you go for a Deep Dive AND the documents are mostly complete, its entirely possible for a 'factory' gun to be mistaken for a 'put together/lunch box special".

Lots of modifications over the years but the gun may be correct and the letter in error. I bought, from another member here, an eight inch RM which lettered (20+ year old letter) as having a Patridge front sight but it wore a King base Bowman ramp. Ok, so someone over the years changed out the front sight, no big deal, I'll buy it anyway.

In the paperwork with the gun were also letters from the original buyer along with the invoice. Both stated that the gun was ordered to have a Bowman ramp and shipped that way. The letter in this case was wrong, not the gun. A problem immediately corrected by Don. Yes, do those deep dives to get supporting documents, your "wrong" gun may be "right."

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[RKmesa]

Looks like a nice 6.5" shooter grade RM with (as noted above) carved post war magnas. The SNs on the rear of most of the pre-war N-Frames were often struck so hard that without a magnifying glass in good light it is sometimes really hard to determine exactly what number was struck there.

Fun gun!

 

[Doc44]

In post #15, the serial number, 61671, is for a nonregistered magnum. The certificate would not list a registration number. I know of an example where S&W issued a certificate for a NRM to a marine in 1940 or 1941, and turned down some requests too. With S&W, you just never know what to expect.

Bill