Family Civil War Saber-Help Identify

[VaTom]

Recently my cousin told me of a Civil War saber that has been in the family and passed down. I was not aware of it until last week. Our great-great grandfather was in the 45 NC Infantry and was captured at Battle of Fishers Hill in 1864 and survived. His two brothers (our great-great uncles) were also in the Confederate Army in the 44th Virginia Heavy Artillery. Both survived. We feel it came from one of those three as it came down through that branch of the family. I am attaching pictures of it. 36” long and 1821 stamped on handle. It appears to me to be an Artillery Saber from my research. Any help identifying would be appreciated.

 

[Valmet]

Many CS swords were manufactured by Boyle & Gamble of Richmond, Va but if 1821 is indicative of year of production it’s obviously pre-war.

 

[VaTom]

Many CS swords were manufactured by Boyle & Gamble of Richmond, Va but if 1821 is indicative of year of production it’s obviously pre-war.

Thanks,

I have not looked at it myself. The pics and information are from my cousin. I see you are from Richmond. The 44th Virginia Heavy Artillery was one the units in the defense of Richmond. They evacuated Richmond as Lee withdrew from Petersburg lines and what remained of them were at Appomattox Surrender. I am the “family historian” but never knew of its existence.

 

[s&wchad]

It might have been used in the Civil War, but it's not Confederate.
That's a US 1818 Nathan Starr Contract Cavalry Saber. 1821 is the production date.

 

[Valmet]

Thanks,

I have not looked at it myself. The pics and information are from my cousin. I see you are from Richmond. The 44th Virginia Heavy Artillery was one the units in the defense of Richmond. They evacuated Richmond as Lee withdrew from Petersburg lines and what remained of them were at Appomattox Surrender. I am the “family historian” but never knew of its existence.

I did my Master’s thesis on Civil War Richmond. The vast majority of CS production in the city stopped around Jan 1865. IMO one of the rarest CS weapons is an 1865 dated Richmond rifle. Not only did they only make a handful, but the few that were made in Jan all went right to Petersburg and the survival rate of those rifles is almost nil.

Anyways, your sword is likely not a Boyle & Gamble but if 1821 is the production year it could really be from anywhere. I’ve never seen a pommel like yours on a B&G.

Edit: Just saw above post and it seems the question has been answered!

 

[handejector]

It might have been used in the Civil War, but it's not Confederate.
That's a US 1818 Nathan Starr Contract Cavalry Saber. 1821 is the production date.

Correct on the ID.
However, if the sword was located in VA in 1861, it is very likely, almost a certainty, that it was used in the war. The South used any US weapons they could lay hands on.
They used anything they could get.
I have an account of the contributions of Athens, GA to the war effort. One lady of Athens describes how she and other women met regularly to make bandages and cast bullets. Their supply chain was sporadic, so they did a lot of scrounging. One of the items they scrounged were their children's lead toy soldiers. She wept at the act of turning toy soldiers into bullets to kill soldiers.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Once in High School I gave a Civil War Presentation.
Borrowed a Derringer from a local lady so I could display a real item.
It was carried by her GF who was a CSA Doctor.
My GGF was CSA Cavalry, wrote with Nathan Bedford Forrest.
None of his gear made it home that I know of.

 

[Valmet]

Sorry for thread drift OP. I have a loaded M1860 Colt Army that was picked up in the 1950s when my Grandfather was MD’ing on his property. From the aftermath of the Battle of Rappahannock Station in 1862. You can still see the bullets in the cylinder.

 

[Muley Gil]

Correct on the ID.
However, if the sword was located in VA in 1861, it is very likely, almost a certainty, that it was used in the war. The South used any US weapons they could lay hands on.
They used anything they could get.
I have an account of the contributions of Athens, GA to the war effort. One lady of Athens describes how she and other women met regularly to make bandages and cast bullets. Their supply chain was sporadic, so they did a lot of scrounging. One of the items they scrounged were their children's lead toy soldiers. She wept at the act of turning toy soldiers into bullets to kill soldiers.

Using whatever they could get included collecting the contents of bedpans for the manufacture of gunpowder.

There was song written during the War about this; however, some of the lyrics aren't family friendly.

 

[Onomea]

My contribution to this thread, found by mother planting flowers in northern Virginia in the early 1960s:

 

[walnutred]

I have to wonder how many Confederate solders were allowed to keep their weapons after the war. Or Union for that matter. One of my cousins has a Bacon revolver and Spencer carbine that belonged to a GG Uncle who was in a Kansas Cav troop during the CW. Were these the actual firearms that he carried during the war or did he buy them after the war from Bannerman's because they were "like" the ones he carried during the war. We'll probably never know.

I avoided all AR pattern firearms for probably 25 years. Then one day got a hankering to build something similar to the M16A1 that I once carried. Since this is a public forum I'll state that the one I built is only semi automatic.

 

[Muley Gil]

I have to wonder how many Confederate solders were allowed to keep their weapons after the war. Or Union for that matter. One of my cousins has a Bacon revolver and Spencer carbine that belonged to a GG Uncle who was in a Kansas Cav troop during the CW. Were these the actual firearms that he carried during the war or did he buy them after the war from Bannerman's because they were "like" the ones he carried during the war. We'll probably never know.

I avoided all AR pattern firearms for probably 25 years. Then one day got a hankering to build something similar to the M16A1 that I once carried. Since this is a public forum I'll state that the one I built is only semi automatic.

General Lee asked Grant if his officers could keep their horses and sidearms, as these items were the officers' personal property. Grant allowed this.

Most Confederate weapons were stacked after the troops surrendered and turned over to the Union forces. I have an Enfield rifle musket that has the soldier's initials and regiment carved on the stock. This soldier became a lieutenant later during the war. I believe he carried his musket home and left it there after he was commissioned. That's my best guess anyway.

 

[VaTom]

Lots of great stories. In my original post I mentioned that my two great-great uncles were in the 44th Va Heavy Artillery. One suffered typhoid fever and was sent home on sick leave in 1864. The other retreated from Richmond was his regiment. They both lived in the vicinity of Appomattox CH so the one who retreated from Richmond may have just left the ranks and went home. My great-great grandfather swore an oath of allegiance and was paroled from the POW stockade at Point Lookout, Maryland in June 1865.

 

[mauser9]

Awesome sword to own in any event. Thanks for sharing.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Our great-great grandfather was in the 45 NC Infantry and was captured at Battle of Fishers Hill in 1864 and survived.

His two brothers (our great-great uncles) were also in the Confederate Army in the 44th Virginia Heavy Artillery. Both survived. We feel it came from one of those three as it came down through that branch of the family.

It appears to me to be an Artillery Saber from my research. Any help identifying would be appreciated.

Being captured his arms and sword would have been taken by the Yankees.

Artillery sword so likely one of the other two in the Artillery.

 

[Rudi]

All I know is that it is really cool!

 

[jimmyj]

In the South anything that was available was used. Pre-civil war weapons were available and used, as arms were not plentiful. battle field pickups were normslly used also.

 

[DILLIGAS]

My great great grandfathers 1861 High Hump Harpers Ferry Rifle that was assembled and stamped "Richmond 1861". Thomas Jonathan (Stonewall) Jackson raided the armory in Harpers Ferry Va. (now West Va.) and sent manufacturing equipment to Richmond. Its in rough shape, missing nipple and stock and barrel cut down. Has 1855 stock with missing patch box. Early 1861 rifles often had 1855 stock. Probably using up old inventory. He survived the war and like many soldiers he shortened the barrel and reamed out the rifling to make a cheap shotgun to have on the farm. Wish it could talk as he served all four years in the 5th Va Infantry (known as Stonewall Brigade after 1st Manassas). Not worth much as in rough shape, the sideplate marked 1861 RICHMOND is probably the most valuable part. The stock has been shaved down which I have been told was done to get dry tender to start a fire. That may or may not be true. It was found in the rafters of his barn. I thought it was still loaded, but it had a mud daubers nest, what I thought was black powder was mud. How he got it back to the Shenandoah Valley is a mystery. He enlisted in 1861 in Bolivar Va. (now WV) near Harpers Ferry. He was from Augusta County Va. He survived all four years and I have a copy of his parole papers from Appomattox.

 

[CajunBass]

I have to wonder how many Confederate solders were allowed to keep their weapons after the war. Or Union for that matter. One of my cousins has a Bacon revolver and Spencer carbine that belonged to a GG Uncle who was in a Kansas Cav troop during the CW. Were these the actual firearms that he carried during the war or did he buy them after the war from Bannerman's because they were "like" the ones he carried during the war. We'll probably never know.

I suspect a lot of Confederates didn't bother to formally surrender, but simply walked away and started for home taking their weapons along with them. After the battle of Sayler's (Sailors) Creek, Lee thought his army had dissolved, so many men just gave up and left. The land was pretty lawless for some time before any type government was able to get established. One needed to be able to look out for himself. Even more deserted before the final event came (It didn't ALL end with Lee's surrender...that was just the first nail in the coffin). Even if they didn't start off with a weapon, I doubt it was hard to find one in that land were probably everybody and their brother had been picking up battlefield drops for years.

I spent a lot of time growing up relic hunting with an old Fisher "machine" that weighed a little less that a M-1 rifle, and got heavier as the day went on and the sun got higher. I never found a firearm, or a blade, but my Grandfather did. He had a number of revolvers, which were mostly revolver shaped hunks of rust, some musket locks, but never an intact musket (I suspect the thinner metal, filthy with black powder, just rusted away pretty quickly). Bullets (many different types) buttons (even more varried) and all sorts of "smalls" from boot lace eyelets, to belt buckles, cartridge box plates, officers epaulets to lead glass medicine/drinking bottles. The stuff that came out of the ground around home was fastinating (Hanover County, Va., site of at least two major campaigns.). Oh, and several swords and sabers. Again, mostly sword/saber shaped pieces of rust, but still interesting.

 

[swagmeister]

Most likely impossible to prove, but I bet it was Confederate carried. As previously stated, they would carry and use any weapon they could find. Very nice piece of history. Hopefully no one will alter or clean it in any way and leave it as is. Thanks for showing.