Fathers S&W , CAN ANYONE TELL ME ABOUT IT.

[strayhorse1990]

FATHERS GUN

i got the pic you requested and a few more , no marking on top but found one under it looks like a dragon, also found more V number inside the cylinder closure, did anyone find out anything about the year made or the list?

 

[red9]

Looks more like a dancing chicken to me. That mark further confuses the history of the gun. Per the book Gunmarks, that resembles the lion used by the Prague proof house or the Liege mark for guns sent to be proofed at a foreign proof house.

 

[deadin]

Thanks for the new pictures.....
The barrel definitely has a sleeve. The lack of markings on the top on the barrel points to either they have been removed or that the barrel has been replaced.
I agree with red9 that the "dancing lion" is either Belgian or Czech, although it doesn't quite match either in the several reference books I have, but it's close enough to allow for variance in the stamping die. (I vote for Czech) However it does support that the barrel has been replaced with an aftermarket one.
I can't lay my hands on the medallion in the grips, but I have seen it before. Maybe it will come to me later.....
That gun has had an interesting past. Your father bringing it back from Germany in the early '60's fits in with the theory that it was rebuilt around that time. My theory is that some dealer in England ordered a replacement barrel from either Czechoslovakia or Belgium. (The lion proof could support either) The gun was then proofed in England for commercial or export and possibly supplied to a dealer in Germany, maybe even a PX, where your father obtained it.

 

[rboineau]

Am trying to reconcile the information that I read in that 1961 "American Rifleman" ad (saying that the barrels used were newly made in Belgium) with the fact that your barrel certainly appears sleeved. No way a 4" M&P/Victory barrel can become a 6", sleeved or not!

Yet it certainly seems unlikely that a complete new 6" barrel could be made, with all the machining involved, and still sell at that $40 price. Maybe they obtained 6" M&P barrels and sleeved them?

 

[deadin]

The lack of patent dates on the barrel pretty much tells me that it's not an original S&W barrel. The article didn't say that the barrels obtained in Belgium were made as .22 barrels, only that they bought barrels from Belgium. Nothing to say that Belgium didn't sleeve a bunch of .38 barrels they happened to have on hand. (Maybe even got them from the Czechs.)

I have a C96 Broomhandle in .30 Mauser that the Belgians "rebuilt" including a sleeve job, removing all of the German marks and reproofing with Belgian marks. (And it wasn't a 9mm to begin with, but a pre-war commercial already in .30 )
So who knows what they might do......

 

[strayhorse1990]

FATHERS GUN

so you saying that gun sold for $40? wow, how can i find or get ahold of that article?

 

[dogngun]

I owned several Czech rifles with their lion stamped on them, and it looked nothing like this one-Belgium, IMO...I'd guess they got lots of guns for next to nothing after WWII and made alterations to them...The Czech rifles I owned started out as German issue Kar 98's and were modified for use by the Israeli army. There was no shortage of surplus guns of all types back then and they were all dirt cheap.

mark

 

[deadin]

Mark,
Nothing like actual comparisons. I was looking at hand drawn examples in a book. Being a Belgian mark makes more sense in this case..

 

[Engine49guy]

Very interesting gun,
I have seen a few in .22lr but yours is the first .22mag to pop up so far.

Would it be possible to take some pics of the firing pin on the hammer as well as the hammer nose bushing where it comes through the frame?
Also of the ejector star and any barrel markings?

I see the forcing cone has a sort of jump gap or chamber before the actual rifling begins ?

my guess would be factory barrels had an insert fitted as these were done on a budget and new barrel would be costly but the lack of S&W marking could prove otherwise.

Interesting part would be that since originally it was a centerfire gun in order to have the firing pin strike the rim of the rimfire round the cylinder inserts and barrel would have to be offset in order to be slightly located more inwards towards the cylinders center.
If not the round would be struck dead center.

Since the round itself is much smaller in diamater the sleeves would move the round inward on its own but they would still have to be offset.
They probably had a jig that centered the sleeves or even a rod through the barrel if done individually.

There is a company that sells conversion kits in Europe to fire .22 rimfire through a .38 / .357 and I have always wondered how the barrel insert was aligned properly as to lign up perfectly with each offset cylinder insert.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[deadin]

I think it would be easier to just replace the hammer nose and cut a slot in the recoil bushing than it would be to try and line up offset cylinder and barrel sleeves.

Or just do it like a K-22 and pin a short firing pin in the frame and remove the hammer nose completely.

 

[strayhorse1990]

FATHERS GUN

hers the pics you asked for, the hammer hits the shell at the bottom of the case. its a little narrow type pin in the hammer, i also found another mark on the pistol, thanks for you help. this turning out to be quite a conversation piece. im just amazed at the people here and thier knowlege. wow!

 

[oberon]

Enjoy that revolver. Wouldn't hurt to catalogue what you do know about what went into it.
It is a one-off, and is a family 'relic'. Pass it down. In a hundred years or so, some one of your descendants will have a unique and interesting gun.

 

[rboineau]

strayhorse, as I mentioned, the ads featuring your gun or something very similar to it were in 1960 and 1961 "American Rifleman" magazines. I could get you the issue numbers if you want, most 1960 and early 1961 issues had the ads. If you want to get a copy or copies the magazines aren't hard to find or very expensive.

 

[strayhorse1990]

FATHERS GUN

please send me any info you can ill find it to have with the gun, we shot it last night and killed a ground hog, my daughter and father was real close when he died and it means alot to het and me to have all this info that everyone haa given me about this gun. there are great people in the USA.

 

[Retired W4]

Czech barrel

I'm looking at my copy of The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, and the mark on the bottom of the barrel is definitely from the Prague proof house. Interesting gun!

 

[M29since14]

I can't add any more to what has already been said, other than to remark that that gun was of some interest to me and that I'm glad you posted it!

I was not aware Victory-s were modified much after the war, but it certainly makes sense. People were very practical-minded then. A conversion like that might not seem economical today, but probably made a lot of sense at that time. I wasn't reading gun magazines then, so its fun information, for me. Lots of stuff like that if you hang around here long enough.

I agree that I would certainly leave that gun as-is. It's real value is in its history. Messing with it will only detract.

 

[rboineau]

strayhorse, I went back through my 1960 and 1961 "American Rifleman" magazines and have the information you requested:

The only company that seemed to handle the guns like your Dad's was Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Of course at that time you could mail order handguns with virtually no restrictions and have the gun sent directly to you (we called it freedom back then).

The July 1960 issue has the first mention I saw--a small segment of Klein's larger ad on page 3. Has a tiny picture of the gun.

August(p. 61), September(p. 7) and October (p. 4) have the best ads for those guns, a picture, mention of availability in both .22 and .22 Magnum, and saying that both guns with 'original' blue are available for $39.88 or "deluxe" refinished guns at $44.98.

November(p.5) and January 1961(pages 2-3) drops the offer for "deluxe" guns.

April 1961 (p. 10) has a slightly different ad saying that the barrels were new, Belgian-made. This was the last ad I saw for these guns.

If I had a spare copy of any of the above mags I would send it to you, but I don't. However, as I mentioned before, copies are neither hard to find nor expensive to buy. I'm sure eBay has them for sale from time to time (often you can buy a whole year, or at least multiple issues, for about the same price a single copy will cost you). And there are other sources.

Regards, Ralph Boineau

 

[strayhorse1990]

FATHERS GUN

thans alot for the info im going to look those up and see if i can buy them. hey by the way can anyone tell me what that last proof mark was the one that has a roof over and look like the letters C7?

 

[wbuschman]

Well I see this thread is almost 3 years old, but I stumbled across it trying to find info about my father's .22 Mag S&W. This gun is not in quite as good of a condition as yours, but it is nearly identical. It's has a V serial and all of the same markings, right down to the dancing chicken. It also has the identical target sights and the silver crown on the grips. I've attached some pictures (taken with cell phone so pardon the quality). If you've found out any more history on this gun I would love to hear it.

My dad was given this gun by my uncle, who bought it in Germany in the 1960s. He either had it modified, or knew it was modified when he bought it. That's about all I know.

Thanks!
Wes

 

[jsfricks]

You might start a new thread to get the most help.