FBI 1076

Oops, before I am rightfully corrected, all Colts were destroyed with the exception firearms retained by the Bureau for demonstration purposes. For example, each FBI field office was allowed to keep one or two Colt .45 Thompson SMGs. As those Thompsons wore out they were destroyed.
 
I've owned several 1076s over the years; they're one of my favorite semi-autos, and I've never owned a bad one. I currently only own one; a worn but still mechanically flawless model that had the mag disconnect disabled at some point in its life. 100% reliable with anything I put in it, and it's my opinion that the 1076 had the best trigger of any S&W auto platform.

The comments about the trigger prepping are interesting; when I was in the Border Patrol Academy in 2003 we were actually taught a version of "prepping" the triggers on our issue Beretta 96Ds that scared the Hell out of me; namely we were supposed to begin our trigger pull as soon as we cleared the holster, the idea being that with practice we'd get to where the gun would discharge just as we acquired a proper sight picture, with no time lag between sight picture acquisition and the breaking of the shot. A lot of my classmates kept throwing rounds into the dirt in front of them, and I half expected someone, eventually, to put a round through their support hand.
 
Dave:

Don't get me wrong, I love the 1076 I think it's the greatest gun S&W has produced and I carry it daily. It is also easy for me to say that they are not worth 2k I got mine for 300 bucks. To a collector as we all know they can command the extremely high prices we have seen. I have one now and would like to have more FBI models. I think the point I was trying to make is the overall functionality of the gun is the same as the regular 1076. The FBI guns have the same trigger feel and double action feel as the civilian model. That said I am in law enforcement yet I carry the civilian model. I am not concerned that the gun will not function with the mag removed. This actually mirrors the training and function of our issued duty guns. I think there is an overall misconception that the FBI gun will be superior to the regular model and for me I don't see that as the case. And DMC8163 IS the resident expert on the FBI guns and I appreciate all of your feedback this is a great story on an outstanding gun. Thanks to the FBI for coming up with such a great round. 10MM is here to stay.
 
You have got to be kidding - resident expert?? Not bloody likely. I do see what you are saying and totally agree. Physically there is no difference between a civilian 1076 and an FBI 1076. I wouldn't want anyone to believe that an FBI 1076 has any advantages over a civilian 1076 in regards to shooting. Exact same parts were used in both. And as I said I'm still working on that "special" trigger group business. I would give alot to be able to identify an FBI 1076 by looking at a special part in the trigger group.
 
Good news for me. I just picked up a 1076 on Auction arms. Maybe some of you guys saw it on there. If you want to take a look the auction number was 9012935. Only paid $576 which I think is a bargain. It has the "Caution, capable of firing without magazine." It also has the checkered pattern on the front part of the grip. Also, through this thread (part of the reason I started it) gave me some serial numbers of confirmed FBI types and the serial number of this gun falls inbetween those numbers. Obviously I will need to verify it through S and W, but I will let you guys know. Take a look if the auction is still available to view and tell me what you think. I tried attaching the auction post, so lets see if that worked.Thanks.
DisplayItem.cfm
 
Originally posted by 940lvr:
As for the "prepping the trigger" thing I have no ides where that came from, but I have never heard of such a training technique used by the FBI.

It is fully described in the article in, I believe, American Rifleman, that appeared at about the time of adoption or shortly thereafter. If I recall, it quotes either John Hall or Yuri Patrick, both of whom were heavily involved in testing, adoption and the training at the time.
 
Regarding any lockwork difference the FBI 1076's may have had: If there was a difference, and that difference was part of the reason some of the FBI 1076's didn't work so well, which prompted their return to S&W, and S&W decided to resell the guns to the public, wouldn't they have probably replaced any different parts with standard 1076 parts?

If so, then all 1076's in public hands now would have the standard lockwork parts.
 
quote:
Originally posted by 940lvr:
As for the "prepping the trigger" thing I have no ides where that came from, but I have never heard of such a training technique used by the FBI.

Quote by shawn mccarver:
It is fully described in the article in, I believe, American Rifleman, that appeared at about the time of adoption or shortly thereafter. If I recall, it quotes either John Hall or Yuri Patrick, both of whom were heavily involved in testing, adoption and the training at the time.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but is that the same article that "fully described" that the FBI's 1076's functioned differently than other 1076s because of the FBI's training to "prep" the trigger? In your original post you stated that the FBI's 1076's were different because of the "prepping the trigger" thing. It seems that everyone has agreed that all 1076s function the same (with the exception of the magazine disconnect which was not exclusive to the FBI's guns). I would like to read the article if you have some way to retrieve it.
 
Just thought you guys wanted to know. I talked with one of my buddy's on another site that talks about federal enforcement jobs, specifically the FBI. He is a long time special agent and has been around since before they used the 1076 and he confirmed that the FBI has never taught the "prepping the trigger" technique. What they do teach is to stay off the trigger until you are on the target. I don't know if that helps to clear anything up. I suspect that there may be some special agents on this forum as well that may have already posted some opinions to this topic.
 
I will defer to dmc on all matters 1076 - his post pretty much says it all. I would like to add that 1076s were widely liked by those who carried them, and I qualified a fellow agent as late as 2005 with his Bureau issued 1076. He ignored many requests to return it to Quantico, and only relented when his paycheck was threatened. Anything you hear about agents not taking to the 1076 because of its size or weight should be taken with a pound of salt - I came into the Bureau right after they stopped issuing the 1076 and saw MANY of them in service. Nobody I knew who had one wanted to give it up.

As far as "prepping the trigger" goes, it certainly wasn't doctrine when I came in, but I did hear the claim that many agents had been trained that way as an early justification for the "no Glocks" rule that was in effect until a prominent FTU instructor retired and was hired by Glock. Things changed shortly thereafter. Now, with the exception of a very few Sig-toting dinosaurs like myself, it is an all-Glock Bureau.

When the 1076s were offered to active agents directly from S&W sometime in the mid-90s ($300 got you the gun, three or four mags, nite-sights, and a blue plastic box with an FBI label) I ordered a butt load on my FFL for fellow agents and New Orleans coppers on our task force. If I ran across a 1076 anywhere in the New Orleans area, I'd invest in a letter.
 
Hey sig,
I bet I could find this info out with a little searching, but what is the sig model that you are still carrying and what is the current glock model that is now standard? Also, what is HRT and other FBI teams teams utilizing as their standard weapon?
 
I carry a personally-owned, Bureau-approved Sig P220 in .45 ACP. I got it on my Dad's FFL while I was still in Quantico, and qualified on it as soon as I got to my first office. I was issued a Sig P226. A lot of guys who were issued revolvers wanted to transition to a semi-auto, so my 226 was re-issued to another guy who wanted it. I haven't had a Bureau issued handgun since. All of the Bureau-issued Sigs have either been recalled or are in the process of getting called in and swapped out for Glocks. The only Sigs still out there are ones like mine that are "grandfathered" in.

Current issue is mainly the Glock 22, though I think some 23s are issued for folks with small hands. SWAT uses Springfield 1911s. HRT used to issue a hi-cap 1911, but I think they've gone to the single stack Springfields, too. I work on an Indian reservation in the middle of nowhere - no HRT around here.

Long guns are now mostly M4s. Some 870s are still around, and I use an MP-5/10mm as a shoulder gun. I think its on the way out, too.
 
I attended the S&W pistol armorers course in about 1991. Just from memory, without checking my notes:

The instructor told us that the FBI had required that the point of the trigger that contacts the draw bar be longer in order to reduce take-up. The trigger was the only part different from normal production.

The pistols "locked up" when that longer trigger would over-ride the draw bar - holding the draw bar forward, which in turn held the hammer down so that pistol could not fire and the slide could not be retracted.

While the special trigger was specified for FBI pistols, some went out with regular production pistols, too.


"Trigger Staging" in this notice.

 
SG-688:

That would be consistent with the failures I had read about; the pistol just locked up, action and slide.

Thank you for your input.
 
Thanks Sigp! I went through the FBI's Firearms Instructor In-Service in December 1990/January 1991. I transitioned to the S&W 1076 pistol at the same time. At that time the Firearms Training Unit was teaching the "prepping the trigger" or "staging the trigger" technique during its pistol transition courses. It was clearly ill-advised and was subsequently abandoned.

Thank you, D

I have not located anyone that recalls the FBI requesting any modification of the trigger group. Nothing was requested in the FBI's Request for Proposal for a 10 MM pistol. The technical requirements in the RFP contained the following clauses which were pertinent to the pistol's trigger.

(g) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.

(h) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.

(i) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.

There were problems with the draw bars being out of spec. There were also similar problems with the 1076's extractor, ejector, trigger play spring, hammer pin, barrel, magazine and other parts. These problems were a result of S&W's manufacturing processes and quality control. Not any technical request from the FBI.

You can find all the FBI's technical requirements for the 10 MM pistol below. I realize the requirements are quite lengthy and apologize to those who object to this use of post space. But I believe it will be of interest to those fans of the 1076.

TECHNICAL PROPOSAL
SMITH AND WESSON'S RESPONSE TO THE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
SOLICITATION NO. RFP 4756
FOR 10 mm PISTOLS

"This proposal or quotation includes data that shall not be disclosed outside the Government and shall not be duplicated, used, or disclosed-in whole or in part-for any purpose other than to evaluate this proposal or quotation. If, however, a contract is awarded to this offeror or quoter as a result of-or in connection with-the submission of this data, the Government shall have the right to duplicate, use, or disclose the data to the extent provided in the resulting contract. This restriction does not limit the Government's right to use information contained in this data if it is obtained from another source without restriction. The data subject to this restriction are contained in sheets W-11, W-12, S-1, S-3, S-4, 14-A."

SPECIFICATIONS
PART I
1. WEAPON
(a) The pistol shall be of caliber 10mm. Specifically,
the loading to be used shall consist of SAAMI specification 10mm cartridge cases, 180
grain hollowpoint bullets, and 5.2 grains of Bullseye powder or powder sufficiently similar as to give the same pressure peak and average pressure as 5.2 grains of Bullseye. The overall length of the loaded cartridge shall be 1.250 inches.
(b) The pistol frame and slide shall be all steel
construction, warranted against cracks or other stress and fatigue failures for 40,000 rounds of the ammunition as specified in (a). Other materials will be considered if a similar warranty accompanies the weapon, and evidence of durability is submitted
detailing the tests conducted and the results obtained. Documentation of claims must be submitted from a
source independent of the manufacturer as well as the manufacturer's own test data.
The FBI reserves the right to verify evidence of service life before the award. The weight of the empty pistol without a magazine inserted shall not exceed 37.0 ounces.
(c) The pistol shall not have a magazine safety or magazine disconnector which prevents firing without a magazine inserted.
(d) The pistol shall have a decocking lever capable of being operated by the shooting hand alone, whether left or right handed and which allows the pistol to be safely decocked without touching or pulling the trigger.
(e) The pistol shall not have an external manual safety or any other feature which must be manipulated in order to enable the pistol to fire.
(f) The external surfaces of the pistol will be of a dark and/or matte, non-glare finish; and the finish shall be restorable to its original condition by FBI gun vault armorers. FBI gunvault capabilities include hot bluing, polishing and buffing, and sand blasting. Finishes restorable by other means are

acceptable if the manufacturer will provide the training necessary to impart the required skills and expertise, and if any new equipment necessary will not cost more than $10,000. Manufacturers will submit data regarding this finish accordingly with their samples.
(g) The magazine release shall be located on the frame of the pistol to the rear of the trigger guard. It
shall be operable by the shooting hand alone, whether right or left handed and shall require pressure "in" towards the frame to release the magazine. Additional, favorable consideration will be given for a magazine release which can be easily installed to operate from either the left or right side of the frame
without special tooling and without altering the frame.
(h) All magazines shall drop freely from the weapon when the magazine release is depressed, regardless of the number of rounds of ammunition in the magazine.
(i) The pistol shall be capable of firing the first round in the chamber with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode by pulling the trigger, without having to manipulate any other controls, levers, safeties, or cocking devices.
(j) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.
(k) The decocked, or hammer down, mode is defined as the trigger fully forward and at rest, and the hammer or striker forward, at rest, and under no spring tension.
(I) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.
(m) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.

(n) The pistol shall have a firing pin block
which will prevent the pistol from firing if dropped.
(o) The pistol shall have an inertial firing pin.
(p) The pistol shall have a disconnector which shall prevent the pistol from firing out of battery and prevent the hammer or striker from being released if the trigger is held to the rear after firing.
(q) The pistol shall have a barrel length of at least 3.5 inches but not more than 5.25 inches. The barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the rear-most top surface of the hood or chamber. The rate of twist of the rifling in the barrel will be one turn in 16 inches. A loaded chamber indicator which will indicate by sight and touch when the chamber is loaded is a desirable other feature.
(r) The pistol shall be provided with fixed, front and rear sights. Both front and rear sights will be capable of being removed and replaced, and be capable of being drifted right or left to adjust for windage. The front and/or rear sights shall be available in at least three different heights to allow for elevation adjustments.
(s) The sights shall be equipped with three dot tritium night sights completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear of the weapon so as to not interrupt or impair the dark outline of the sights. Plain sights shall be available as optional
replacement sights. Any sighting aids on the plain sights shall be completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear.
(t) Each pistol shall be supplied with 6 magazines. The minimum desired capacity for the weapon with a fully loaded magazine and one round in the chamber is 12 rounds.
(U) Each pistol shall be supplied with one additional,
extended magazine which is capable of holding at least 50% more rounds than any one of the
magazines in (t) above.
(v) Every magazine shall be equipped with an extended, protective base pad which will help cushion the impact of the magazine when dropped freely from within the weapon, and which shall extend the bases of the magazines in (t) above at least 1/8 inch but no more than 1/4 inch below the bottom¬most surface of the grip. The base pads shall not have to be removed for assembly/disassembly of the magazine.
(w) The pistol and the magazines shall not be capable of being assembled incorrectly during the course of normal field stripping and cleaning procedures.
(x) The pistol shall not be capable of being
disassembled when in a firing condition, with the slide and barrel assembly in battery and a magazine in place.
(y) The pistol shall not require the trigger to be pulled in order to field strip, or disassemble, the slide from the frame.
(z) At least two different configurations of grips or grip panels will be available, and/or an optional
trigger shape, as options for the pistol in addition to the standard grips or grip panels, to enable better fitting of the weapon to different sized hands by changing the shape, trigger reach, front to rear distance, width, or other size and shape characteristics. Specifically, there shall be a means of decreasing the distance between the front center of the trigger and the rear of the frame or grips to enable the weapon to better fit small-handed shooters.
(aa) The distance from the bottom rear surface of the trigger guard to the bottom of the frame shall not be less than 2.5 inches measured along the
front surface of the frame.
(bb) At least 50% of the surface area of the front of the grip frame below the trigger guard shall be checkered to improve grip control and retention.
(cc) The grips, grip panels, and rear of the grip frame shall be checkered and/or composed of a non-slip substance with the qualities of neoprene.
(dd) All exposed corners and sharp edges shall be rounded,
particularly around the juncture of the trigger
guard and frame, the bottom edges of the trigger guard, the edges of the hammer, corners of the rear sight, and forward edges of the trigger.
(ee) The magazine well shall be beveled to facilitate insertion of a magazine.
(ff) Six samples of each pistol submitted shall be provided. The six samples representing one submission shall each be fully representative of the pistol which shall be produced by the manufacturer should that manufacturer
win the contract.
(gg) Each pistol shall be sighted in at 25 yards with the ammunition specified in (a) above so that the point of aim and the point of impact coincide within a 1" radius about the point of aim. Point of impact is defined as the center of a 10 shot group.
(hh) Ammunition as specified in (a) above shall be used to test the pistol for accuracy. The ammunition will first be fired in a 5-inch test barrel held in a Ransom Rest. The test barrel will have rifling with a rate of twist of one turn in 16 inches. Two 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards and
the average group computed. Each sample pistol will be fired using the same lot of ammunition and the
same Ransom Rest. Two 10-shot groups will be fired from each sample submitted. All groups thus fired will be averaged together, and the average group thus obtained should not exceed 2.5 times the average group obtained with that lot of ammunition from the test barrel. All groups will be measured from center to center across the extreme spread of the group.
(ii) The manufacturer shall submit two sets of Ransom Rest inserts for use with the pistol. The inserts will not be returned.
Three of the six samples shall be regularly field stripped and cleaned during the course of live fire testing. The other three samples will be initially field stripped and cleaned, but they will not be cleaned at all during the course of live fire testing.
(kk) A record shall be kept of every stoppage which occurs
during live fire testing. A stoppage is defined
as any malfunction or problem which occurs which prevents the pistol from firing regardless of cause, and which can be corrected by the shooter
(for example, failure to eject, failure to feed, dropping of the magazine, etc.), except for ammunition failures. The rate of stoppage for each gun will be computed by dividing the number of stoppages into the total number of rounds fired through the pistol. A rate greater than one per 200 rounds fired is undesirable. If more than two of the six samples
exceed the 1:200 rate, the submission may be rejected. If no more than two of the sample weapons exceed
the 1:200 rate, the average stoppage rate for all six combined will be computed by dividing the total stoppages for all six into the total rounds fired through all six samples. This figure will be used
for evaluative purposes regarding the submission.
(II) Any breakages that occur during the course of live fire testing may be grounds for rejection of the submission. A breakage is defined as any stoppage, malfunction, or deterioration of the weapon which prevents firing or affects the structural integrity of the weapon, and which cannot be resolved by the Shooter on the line.
(mm) Each sample of each submission shall be live fire tested with a minimum of 210 rounds of the ammunition specified in (a) above by each member of the Test and Evaluation Group as follows:
1. Double Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 15 yards. Each shot will be fired using the first shot, or double action, trigger.
2. Single Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards. Each shot will be fired using the second shot, or single action, trigger.
3. 2x2 - at least 20 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 2-shot strings. The first shot will be double action and the second shot single action. This will test the transition from double to single action, trigger reset distance, smoothness and length of pull, and their effects on the shooter's speed and accuracy.
4. 5x5 - at least 50 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 10-shot strings, two magazines of five rounds each per string. The shooter will have 10 seconds to fire all 10 rounds, with the first shot double action, and including a magazine change. This will test the pistols trigger, recoil system, and operating features relative to their effects upon the shooter's speed, accuracy, and efficiency.
5. 50 yard - at least three 10-shot groups will be fired prone at 50 yards, single action only. This will test the pistol's ability in the hands of a shooter at relatively extreme handgun range where any adverse effects will be readily revealed on the target.
6. PQC - one run of the FBI Pistol Qualification Course (a 50 round course) will be fired to measure a shooter's ability to score and qualify with the weapon. A description of the PQC is appended to these specifications.
(nn) Two of the six samples shall be subjected to the following abusive tests upon the conclusion of live fire testing:
(a) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of
3 feet to land on the rear of the slide on a floor of quarry tile or concrete as follows:
1. 3 times - with the hammer cocked
2. 3 times - with the hammer decocked 3. 3 times - with the hammer released
by the trigger and eased as far
forward as it will go
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(b) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of
3 feet to land on the muzzle. The drops will be 3 times with the hammer in each of the 3 conditions cited above, and on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(c) The trigger guard of the pistol shall be struck once by a metal wedge dropped from a
height of 12 inches (plus or minus 0.25 inches). The height is measured vertically from the surface of the trigger guard to the lowest
Point on the striking edge of the wedge.
The metal wedge will weigh 8 pounds. The striking edge is radiused. The edge is flat, measuring 1/8 inch wide along its entire length. The wedge is inserted upon a wooden handle which extends 33 inches from the near side of the wedge. The weight of the wedge and handle combined is 9.5 pounds. The wooden handle is drilled and bolted between two metal
uprights so the wedge can fall freely in an arc.
The bolt is 11.75 inches above the base.
The distance from the bolt to the center of the wedge is 32.25 inches. A metal vise is bolted to the base so that when the striking edge of
the wedge is resting on the top of the vise jaws, the wooden handle is parallel to the base.
The pistols to be tested will be held upside down in the vise so that the impact area on the trigger guard is as horizontal as possible. The
pistol will be adjusted so that the impact of the wedge occurs in the area between 1/8 inch and
3/8 inch immediately behind the tip of the trigger when the trigger is in its fully forward,
decocked position.
In order to pass, the trigger guard must not bend enough to prevent or hinder the trigger from being pulled in the first shot, or double action, mode.
(d) The weapon, with magazine inserted, will be thrown twice, once in such a way as to land on the right side, and once in such a way as to land on the left side. The throw will be for a distance of approximately 15 feet, not to exceed a height of approximately 4 feet, to land on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
To pass this test, the weapon must be functional when completed, capable of being fired,
and magazines intact. There will be no
Penalty if the magazines are released from the weapon upon impact, provided they are not damaged and dysfunctional.
(e) Any damage which occurs to the weapon during abusive testing which would prevent the weapon from firing shall be a failure.
too) The manufacturer of the winning pistol shall
provide armorer/gunsmith training to all FBI gunsmiths on-site at the FBI Academy, Quantico, concurrent with the first delivery of weapons. Specifically, such training will include complete detailed disassembly and assembly of the
weapons, diagnosis and resolution of malfunctions, fitting of parts, training in the functioning
and engineering of the design, symptoms of impending malfunctions and actual malfunctions, necessary tools and their proper use, and necessary dimensions and tolerances.
(pp) During the course of this contract, inclusive of all option years, it is estimated that a not to exceed amount of 5% of the weapons to be procured may need modifications (i. e., shorter barrels/slides, frames, even at the expense of magazine capacity). Prices for these will be negotiated at time of exercise of option. For the purpose of evaluation, only the basic model will be considered.
 
Originally posted by SG-688:
I attended the S&W pistol armorers course in about 1991. Just from memory, without checking my notes:

The instructor told us that the FBI had required that the point of the trigger that contacts the draw bar be longer in order to reduce take-up. The trigger was the only part different from normal production.

The pistols "locked up" when that longer trigger would over-ride the draw bar - holding the draw bar forward, which in turn held the hammer down so that pistol could not fire and the slide could not be retracted.

While the special trigger was specified for FBI pistols, some went out with regular production pistols, too.

I don't claim to vouch for the validity of what he said. He was, after all, an employee of Smith & Wesson and may well have been a bit biased.

2023 edit: Let's remember the S&W "advisory" on 10 mm pistols with decocking levers - although the notice does not state that the triggers were the part replaced. Afterwards marked with the two dots under the lever.

Also adding the 'staging' notice that applied to all the basic model 39 lock work pistols.

This may be noted later in this thread - but I'm jumping here!
 

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