Federal District Judge rules those indicted for a felony may purchase firearms

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On Sept. 19, 2022, Federal District Judge David Counts ruled that being under indictment for a felony should not bar one from possessing or purchasing a firearm. Should this decision be upheld, indicted felons apparently would gain full Second Amendment rights, and ATF Form 4473 would need to be revised.

The Dallas Morning News printed the editorial below on Sept. 21.

Guns for criminals? Texas judge’s gun rights ruling makes us less safe
 
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Would be real easy for any of these gun grabbing states to indict someone they don't want to have a firearm so they couldn't purchase one. Even if not guilty.

Now gun dealers still have the option to deny a purchase for any reason they choose. I would imagine if you were being indicted and it made the news, most of them would not sell you a firearm.

I think this is a move in the right direction. You should never have your rights taken away for any reason without due process.

Rosewood
 
The subject line is incorrect. It allows someone indicted for a felony to purchase a firearm (still not proven guilty). It does not allow someone who is already a felon (who may be indicted for something else) to purchase one.

I watched a video on the subject by the "Armed Attorneys". They had a great example. You defend yourself or family in a clear case of self defense. The DA indicts you for murder and your firearm has been confiscated. You only had 1 firearm. Now, you have no way to protect yourself and family and the family of the perp that you shot is now threatening your life, that makes you kind of helpless if you can't replace your confiscated firearm.

Rosewood
 
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Can I ask a silly question: if one is Indicted awaiting trial, aren’t they in Jail? Or is this where Bail comes into play?
Excuse my ignorance of our legal system……….
 
Can I ask a silly question: if one is Indicted awaiting trial, aren’t they in Jail? Or is this where Bail comes into play?
Excuse my ignorance of our legal system……….

Yes, you can be out on bail.
 
Can I ask a silly question: if one is Indicted awaiting trial, aren’t they in Jail? Or is this where Bail comes into play?
Excuse my ignorance of our legal system……….

An "indictment" means that you have been formally charged with an offense. Lots of things can happen after that. More charges can be added. Some or all charges can be dropped. The charge can be reduced to a misdemeanor or made a more serious felony. At this phase of the process no one has been convicted of anything. Bail is usually set depending on the danger to the community the alleged offender presents (a tax cheater is going to get a different bail than an axe murderer, hopefully) and the likelihood of he/she voluntarily appearing in court. An amount of bail is determined in almost all cases and the alleged offender can post it and be free while awaiting trial. Often the alleged offender only has to pony up ten percent of the bail. So, if he has a fifty thousand dollar bail, he can get out by posting five thousand. Sometimes he even gets this back. Sometimes not. Depends on the judge and/or the jurisdiction and the actual type of bail. This varies a lot around the country. Sometimes you need to pay a Bail Bondsman ten percent as he fee that you don't get back. Sometimes the Court requires that you post ten percent with them, and they give it back when the case has been disposed of.

Indictments come from a Grand Jury. That is usually a panel of citizens gathered up for that purpose. Of course there are differences to this process from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The essential parts of the concept generally don't change much, if at all.

Most of the "rights" in this process are with the governing body (usually the State) who is bringing the charges. The alleged offender has limited rights to defend himself at this stage. All the governing body has to do is convince the Grand Jury panel that it is more likely than not that the alleged offender committed the crime. Given the lop-sided rights of the parties in this process, it is often said that it would not be impossible to indict a ham sandwich. That is why there often are major changes to the charge once it gets into a real court in front of a real judge where both sides have the same opportunities.

I have often wondered how they could deny the right to own a firearm because of a pending charge. You are not a criminal until you have been convicted of something. Being charged with something does not mean that you did it. It just means that someone thinks that you did. They may have less than perfect reasons for thinking that, like all the info they got was from a very one sided Grand Jury.
 
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I can't read the article, it's behind a pay wall.

Here's the opinion.
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/422cv104.pdf

The scope was limited, and the question came down to whether section 922( n) was constitutional. The court deemed it was not, and the court applied the precedent under Bruen.

Some here may not like the result. But it seems well reasoned to me. You can possess a firearm if under indictment, but it is unlawful to receive a firearm... so if 922( n) does not prohibit possession, how can it be constitution to make a crime of receiving a firearm? The reasoning is a bit more thorough than this, of course, and the opinion methodically leads to the result.

I'm fine with the holding. Does it mean someone may end up receiving a gun that, in retrospect, should not have? Probably.

But our Constitutional protections also have resulted in many guilty going free, and none of us complain.

The state should be forced to meet very high standards to take away our rights, especially if those rights are taken away as the result of a non-adversarial proceeding.

And finally, I must say, the headline of the article is horse poo (no offense to the OP, it's directed at the paper).
 
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The media's legal talking heads are thinking this gets overturned on appeal, but I don't think so. The key aspect is that this is about someone indicted but not convicted. No one should have their rights violated until they are convicted.

I think this ruling has great promise as a basis for defeating the "red flag" laws. As we all know, those laws constitute "guilty until proven innocent" because you get your guns taken away without any chance to defend yourself in court. Those laws are blatantly unconstitutional, and this ruling is a path to getting that determination.
 
I can't read the article, it's behind a pay wall.

Here's the opinion.
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/422cv104.pdf

Sorry about the pay wall. I checked twice after I posted and there was no pay wall then. And the Morning News' editorial headline was misleading.

The editorial spent a lot of space commenting on the judge's reasoning. The judge focused on the lack of historical context behind the 1938 and subsequent laws that barred those under indictment for felonies from receiving firearms. The Morning News disagreed with his analysis, stating, "The opinion goes on to selectively apply Colonial and post-Colonial history around gun restrictions in ways that defy common historical understanding of the way firearms were treated in that era."

I suspect this is not the last we'll hear of this case.
 
I think I have it all with a trashing of Justice Thomas thrown in.Tough to paste on an IPad.


“When it comes to gun laws in this country, we are tipping from tragedy into farce. To be sure, the result will be yet more tragedy.

A ruling Monday from U.S. District Judge David Counts would upend nearly a century of American regulation that prevented people charged with serious crimes from possessing a firearm.

The law made plain sense to all of us. People charged with crimes very often have committed crimes, and permitting them to buy, carry or get their hands on pistols and rifles is the sort of thing we should stop.

But such is not the mind of Counts, who opens his 25-page opinion on longstanding federal law thusly: “This Court faces a predicament similar to Plato’s allegory of the cave.”



You can imagine what we are in for after that. The ruling that follows is a ponderous if misguided reading of history and law that doubles down on the questionable analysis we saw in the Supreme Court’s Bruen ruling earlier this year.

In New York State Rifle & Pistol Association vs. Bruen, the high court concluded that to regulate firearms, the government must “justify its regulation by demonstrating it is consistent with the Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.”

Writing for the court, Justice Clarence Thomas then went on a highly selective reading of the history of firearm regulation to reach the preordained conclusion that really it can’t be regulated much at all.

Counts follows that lead in a fashion that would be comical if it weren’t so dangerous.

Here were the facts Counts was considering: In June 2020, a man named Jose Gomez Quiroz was indicted for burglarizing a home in Pecos County. He didn’t show up to court for a hearing and was charged in June 2021 with jumping bail.


In December, while charges were pending for both burglary and jumping bail, Quiroz decided he needed a handgun, in this case a .22 caliber semi-automatic M1911.


Quiroz ordered the pistol from American Tactical Imports “to be transferred to Morrison True Value in Alpine, Texas,” according to a defense motion for acquittal.

Was he denied this purchase? He was not. He did fill out a federal form that inquired whether he was under indictment, to which he falsely responded no. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, “returned a delayed response” on a query about Quiroz, according to Counts’ ruling.

Quiroz then waited seven days before his gun was ready to pick up.

Was he stopped when he went to the store to get it? He was not. Quiroz got his gun on Dec. 30 and walked out of the door.

It was days later that NICS finally flagged Quiroz to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. He was arrested and charged with a violation of federal law for the illegal receipt of a firearm by a person under indictment, and for making a false statement that he was not under indictment.

A jury heard the facts and convicted Quiroz on June 23 on both counts.

Which brings us back to Plato’s cave.

Relying on Bruen, Counts dismissed Quiroz’s conviction because, according to his reading of history, the federal law prohibiting a person under indictment to receive and possess a firearm is insufficiently historic.

Yes, there is the 1938 law wherein Congress regulated firearms for people under indictment for violent crimes. And yes, the purpose of that law was to “eliminate the guns from crooks’ hands, while interfering as little as possible with the law-a-biding citizen,” according to Counts’ own quote of the Congressional record.



And, yes, that law was amended in 1961 to expand it to include all federal crimes. And, yes, in the Gun Control Act of 1968, it was expanded to any indictment in any court for just about any crime. And, yes, in 1986, Congress combined these prohibitions into the single law under which Quiroz was indicted.

That’s not good enough as a historical record. Or as Counts writes, “Yet the Government fails to explain why regulations enacted less than a century years [sic] ago count as ‘longstanding.

Plato’s cave indeed

The opinion goes on to selectively apply Colonial and post-Colonial history around gun restrictions in ways that defy common historical understanding of the way firearms were treated in that era

This would be funny if it weren’t so serious. The danger this ruling could create is real if it holds. Imagine the domestic abuser who can go buy a gun or who can’t have his guns taken away, who is enraged because his wife was able to summon the courage to get away. That’s just one scenario that leaps to mind.

Past Congresses understood something that should be obvious. People under indictment for crimes should not have access to firearms. Those past Congresses acted on behalf of the citizens who want to live without the fear of knowing people arrested and awaiting trial can go buy a gun.

We live today in an all-or-nothing political and legal climate. The kind of common sense that guided Congress and the courts is evaporating under these sorts of rulings.

This ruling is not a philosophical puzzle to be pondered. It’s a weak twisting of history and law that should be dismissed.

Some folks just need to get out of the cave and see the light of day.”
 
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There is another reality to this problem, the shamefully long time our judicial system is taking to process indictments. I live in a large urban area that has utterly failed to keep up. The dysfunction begins with the arrest and hearing process. Lazy judges appoint midnight magistrates for bond hearings. The magistrates are often lawyers who cannot find gainful employment elsewhere. They repeatedly bond out actors with a slew of pending indictments. The bail bond market is a buyers' market with bondsmen competing with ever lower rates. The cashless bail system often gets thrown into this toxic mess. The end result is thousands of arrested criminals walking around with low bonds, or no bonds, awaiting a trial delayed years into the future. I understand the constitutional principle of innocent until proven guilty, but the practical reality here is a farce. I have no problem with denying gun sales to the indicted until we speed up the courts. Justice delayed is justice denied, and in this case selling a firearm to a felon in near perpetual legal limbo denies me public safety justice.
 
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