Federal Gun Registration

[sgt49]

I was having a conversation with a friend. He contends that when a gun is purchased, a record of your name and the gun's number is placed in a federal database. I don't believe it is. Also, at the factory the gun is fired and the bullet's markings and the gun number are entered into a federal database. I don't believe this is done either. Who is right? Thanks.

Steve Tahan,
Appling, GA

 

[bluegrassarms]

Who is right? Well it isn't him.

If you buy a gun from a dealer you fill out a 4473 form. That form will have his info and it will list the guns purchased, but it is not submitted to the government. The FFL is required to keep it for 20 years in a filing cabinet somewhere, and if they go out of business they turn them over to ATF but ATF doesn't use those to build a database, they do store them.

Neither is it true every gun barrel is registered by the manufacturer. I'm not one but afaik only the serial number and who they sold it to is stored by the maker. When ATF does a "trace" they go to the maker and have them look up who the gun was originally sold to. If that goes to a dealer they then come to us and we then go through our records to find who bought it, etc. But there's no computer database tying guns to buyers and ATF is only authorized to do a trace as part of a criminal investigation. it's also a very infrequent thing.

Guns are almost all test fired by the maker, but not for registration purposes, for quality testing.

You'd be amazed how many people think there is already a federal registry of gun purchases. Many think it's the background check system, NICS, that builds it, but any record of a NICS search has to be deleted within 48 hours iirc, so 2 days after the background check is run there's no record it ever happened.

There is the paper 4473 record, and for some that's too much and while I think the risk is infinitesimal I won't blame them as the feds COULD theoretically change the law and come collect them all and build one, but it would take an act of Congress to do so. It's a risk, but there is currently no database being built and it would be a monumental task to get all those paper forms into a database.

There IS one "database" being built, and it's for multi-handgun purchases. If you buy more than 1 handgun from the same dealer within 5 days we have to submit to ATF a form listing those guns and your info. The idea is to try to stop straw buyers who are buying for the black market, but it's not like it's done any good. That form gets sent straight to ATF and they do look at those guns and check them in a database b/c we've been called back on them by ATF to verify serial numbers and such.

Edit: forgot to mention that in the 4 border states with Mexico they also do this for multiple long gun purchases. It's in court being fought by the NRA and others, but so far no luck. All part of the Fast and Furious attempt to justify more controls (esp. a registry) b/c of Mexican gun running.

 

[sgt49]

Thanks Chuck. I appreciate your taking the time to post that response.

Steve Tahan,
Appling, GA

 

[bluegrassarms]

No problem. I get that question a lot, there's a lot of misinformation out there on the process. I'm glad to get the correct info out there whenever I can.

 

[Mcwsky09]

I believe I have read that some states require that the test fired case with date etc and not sure what other data is sent to local law enforcement, perhaps the sheriff's office. Not sure what happens with it from there.

 

[Aticus]

There is an empty case that was fired in each handgun that is shipped with the gun. In some states this case must be sent to the local or state police. I don't remember which ones but FFLs in those states generally take care of that, I think.

 

[bluegrassarms]

I know Maryland is a state that has that silly empty casing law, not sure if there are others or if they even still have that law. I don't believe the manufacturers are involved in it. I don't know if you can use the spent casing they send from the test firing or if a different one has to be submitted.

Still, even they aren't doing what the OP described, which is the barrel being tracked somehow from the bullet ballistics at a federal level.

I imagine that's how those stories get started though, confusion with state laws and laws that may have been proposed but never passed.

I'm not sure but AFAIK most states don't even do a ballistics database on guns they confiscate. I'd be curious to know more about how that side of it works.

 

[artemis]

My firearms were legally bought and the last one in 1981.

They, the government and or authorities, are welcome to look for all the literal 'paper work', but I will refuse to submit any of my firearms for registration under my Constitutional Rights that protect me.

 

[mkk41]

Some states do have a gun owners/make/model/ser.no registration database and MAY be supplying such data to the Feds.

I wouldn't put anything past the current administration.

Most guns can be traced in reverse from manufacturer/importer to the original retail purchaser only. At least in states with no registration.

 

[bobermo]

Some states do have a gun owners/make/model/ser.no registration database and MAY be supplying such data to the Feds.

I wouldn't put anything past the current administration.

Most guns can be traced in reverse from manufacturer/importer to the original retail purchaser only. At least in states with no registration.

I agree. If your state, county or city requires the registration of firearms, then I would just assume the Feds already have this information. CA SB 374 when signed by Gov Brown will require the registration of most all centerfire semiautomatic rifles. Missouri Highway Patrol turned over all concealed carry permit info to the Federal Social Security Administration in 2011. I'm sure this is happening in other states as well.

 

[bigmoneylewis]

If I read the UN small arms treaty correctly ( the one that Kerry signed last Wednesday) it gives the green light for all nations who signed it, to have a database of all firearms / owners .
Also this 'treaty" will stop the importation of any ammo, magazines, or firearms manufactured outside the U.S.
Sounds like infringement on the second ammendment to me.

Lewis

 

[NorthWoods1900]

Sadly, we need to recall that the 21st amendment was repealed by the 18th amendment (Prohibition). Unlike the Ten Commandments, the Bill of Rights was not chiseled with the finger of God. It's subject to revision and repeal - popular democracy in action. The Second Amendment is NOT irrevocable. The anti gun forces are a significant portion of our population and have the total support the news media. We have an uphill struggle here. As our opponents say, "think global and act local." With the recent revelations about the IRS and NSA, and the technology they have available, it is only prudent to assume that they can find out whatever they want, whenever they want and the so-called legal restriction be damned. This is neither pleasant to contemplate nor to say - but Adams, Franklin and Jefferson all had the same dilemma in there own day. May God Bless and preserve this Republic...

 

[italiansport]

Who is right? Well it isn't him.

If you buy a gun from a dealer you fill out a 4473 form. That form will have his info and it will list the guns purchased, but it is not submitted to the government. The FFL is required to keep it for 20 years in a filing cabinet somewhere, and if they go out of business they turn them over to ATF but ATF doesn't use those to build a database, they do store them.

Neither is it true every gun barrel is registered by the manufacturer. I'm not one but afaik only the serial number and who they sold it to is stored by the maker. When ATF does a "trace" they go to the maker and have them look up who the gun was originally sold to. If that goes to a dealer they then come to us and we then go through our records to find who bought it, etc. But there's no computer database tying guns to buyers and ATF is only authorized to do a trace as part of a criminal investigation. it's also a very infrequent thing.

Guns are almost all test fired by the maker, but not for registration purposes, for quality testing.

You'd be amazed how many people think there is already a federal registry of gun purchases. Many think it's the background check system, NICS, that builds it, but any record of a NICS search has to be deleted within 48 hours iirc, so 2 days after the background check is run there's no record it ever happened.

There is the paper 4473 record, and for some that's too much and while I think the risk is infinitesimal I won't blame them as the feds COULD theoretically change the law and come collect them all and build one, but it would take an act of Congress to do so. It's a risk, but there is currently no database being built and it would be a monumental task to get all those paper forms into a database.

There IS one "database" being built, and it's for multi-handgun purchases. If you buy more than 1 handgun from the same dealer within 5 days we have to submit to ATF a form listing those guns and your info. The idea is to try to stop straw buyers who are buying for the black market, but it's not like it's done any good. That form gets sent straight to ATF and they do look at those guns and check them in a database b/c we've been called back on them by ATF to verify serial numbers and such.

Edit: forgot to mention that in the 4 border states with Mexico they also do this for multiple long gun purchases. It's in court being fought by the NRA and others, but so far no luck. All part of the Fast and Furious attempt to justify more controls (esp. a registry) b/c of Mexican gun running.

Thanks for your comprehensive answer but I'm going to take exception with part of it. Don't be too sure that the Feds haven't already built a comprehensive firearms owners data base. Million of 4473s have been surrendered to them due to dealers going out of business over the years. The dealer base also shrunk due to tightening up of regulations during the Clinton era.
I would think the ability to computerize these records would be irresistible to an operation like the BATF.
I have asked my Congressman to "look into" the possibility that the BATF has been surreptitiously doing just that with these record but to date I've heard nothing back.
Now if the anti's could have got that universal background check thru Congress the 1st step to universal registration would have been accomplished.
Jim

 

[johngalt]

Sadly, we need to recall that the 21st amendment was repealed by the 18th amendment (Prohibition). Unlike the Ten Commandments, the Bill of Rights was not chiseled with the finger of God. It's subject to revision and repeal - popular democracy in action. The Second Amendment is NOT irrevocable. The anti gun forces are a significant portion of our population and have the total support the news media. We have an uphill struggle here. As our opponents say, "think global and act local." With the recent revelations about the IRS and NSA, and the technology they have available, it is only prudent to assume that they can find out whatever they want, whenever they want and the so-called legal restriction be damned. This is neither pleasant to contemplate nor to say - but Adams, Franklin and Jefferson all had the same dilemma in there own day. May God Bless and preserve this Republic...

The Bill of Rights does not grant any rights, it merely affirms pre-existing rights that may not be infringed. Repealing the 2nd (however unlikely) would not revoke the right. The US Government, being the creation of the sovereign states and their free citizens, has no power to grant rights. It only has powers granted to it from us.

 

[Wheeler57]

Oh you naïve chumps. Have you not seen that we no longer need an act of congress for anything. Wake Up.

 

[Nedroe]

Oh you naïve chumps. Have you not seen that we no longer need an act of congress for anything. Wake Up.

That's right. Big numbers in bogus public opinion polls are all they need.

Ned

 

[steelslaver]

EDIT
Sorry, had political statement.

 

[wbraswell]

U.S. Law trumps any treaty or U.N. malarkey.

 

[millisec]

Its been a while since I lived there but some states like NC have guns registered at the local sheriffs level. If you don't have a permit you must take paperwork with gun specifics and get it approved (and pay a fee). When I was at the small sheriffs office for my first in state purchase she was talking at the same time with deputies in the field. They requested info on a local and she punched his name into system and told them oh yeah he's got guns and rattled off every gun he owned (guess at least ones purchased in NC). After getting a CCW you don't have to go through that but I believe they still get the info. So every Sheriff collects it and every Sheriff (and probably any other state agency) has access to it. So if its available statewide you can bet the Fed has its grubby paws on the data.

Even here in FL I have to wonder what is really occurring. FL handles all its own NICS approvals through FDLE rather than having FFL's go directly through NICS. Government has proven time and time again laws/regulations mean nothing and who knows what they are really doing with the data.

 

[PA Guns & Ammo]

I know Maryland is a state that has that silly empty casing law, not sure if there are others or if they even still have that law. I don't believe the manufacturers are involved in it. I don't know if you can use the spent casing they send from the test firing or if a different one has to be submitted.

Still, even they aren't doing what the OP described, which is the barrel being tracked somehow from the bullet ballistics at a federal level.

I imagine that's how those stories get started though, confusion with state laws and laws that may have been proposed but never passed.

I'm not sure but AFAIK most states don't even do a ballistics database on guns they confiscate. I'd be curious to know more about how that side of it works.

NY had it and called it CoBIS, Combined Ballistic Identification System that was removed in 2012 that collected over 250,000 shell casings and cost and estimated $32 million dollars and not even a single arrest or conviction has been made. It is a stupid "feel good" law that only wastes more tax dollars.

James