Federal Judge says 2nd does not apply to illegals.

[WCCPHD]

He lied on the 4473. Nice try, off to the pokey.

In Fiscal Year 2020 there were 298 indictments for lying on a 4473. Given the number of probable offenses one would stand a better chance of being struck by lightning.

I was unable to find the data, but I would submit that most if not all of the 298 were "add on" charges to other crimes.

 

[Model29-26.5]

I’ve been a greencard holder for 22 years. Renewal is Nov 2026 and I’ll do Citizenship. I’ve kept greencard status for several reasons mostly of convenience, but mostly so I can work in the US and in Europe with no work permit issues, as I’m a touring musician. It just makes it easier. Hopefully I’ll be able to get dual citizenship for this purpose when the time comes.
With this said, since Jan I’ve purchased 29 Smith revolvers with no issues as a greencard holder.
Of course, this is great for me having just got the “Illness” as a collector/accumulator, but there’s certainly a part of me that feels that it’s been a little too easy for me to do this.
I would say though, that there’s a bigger part of me that feels like I hope the feds are watching me.., because if a news story came up about a greencard holder “going postal” and then it came out that this guy had collected 29 firearms in the last year having never owned one before, we’d all be asking what on earth the feds were doing and why didn’t they check on this red flag.
I’d be perfectly fine being checked for this reason.

As far as illegals and 2nd Am rights, .. grey area. Many illegals work hard and pay taxes.. many don’t. Illegal is illegal, but as soon as you have a system that allows them to be taxed but still illegal there are going to be these grey areas and issues for which one opinion is as valid as another.
It’ll be case by case, and you just hope that each case is fairly judged by a fair minded judge.

 

[Frailer]

The subject of this poorly-titled article appears to have lied on a 4473; *that* is the issue. Do not pass to, do not collect $200.

But this thread has strayed away from that a bit. While I agree that citizens have some rights that non-citizens do not (such as the right to vote), the Constitution (and its Bill of Rights) applies to *everyone*. Human right are human rights.

 

[tomahawk223]

good call, now its crystal clear that illegals have NO constitutional rights, not just second amendment

 

[Telecaster]

If any of us lied on the 4473 22 times, I wonder if we’d be simply “watched.” That makes the whole system a joke. Criminals obtain guns, the ATF can’t stop them. Who are the free ones?

 

[ladder13]

Maybe we can return to sanity now.

 

[mtgianni]

If this is upheld, that means that none of the Bill of Rights apply to illegals in our borders. That has not been the case in most situations. I personally hope that it is upheld, but prosecutors should not be allowed to pick and choose their cases in that way.

 

[johngalt]

I can see some dangerous precedent here. If you want to claim that illegals have forfeited their rights due to being here illegally, does that mean U.S. citizens should also lose our rights for being under suspicion of a crime?

That ruling also sounds like a declaration that our rights are granted by the government. They are not - the Constitution merely recognizes that our pre-existing rights cannot be infringed.

 

[CZU]

How does an IA pass a background check?

 

[LVSteve]

How does an IA pass a background check?

Some states do their own background checks and can get sloppy. I know damned well they did on one of mine before I became a citizen.

 

[AudieMurphy]

Some states do their own background checks and can get sloppy. I know damned well they did on one of mine before I became a citizen.

NO states do thier OWN....a 4473 is called in to the FBI in Clarksburg,Wv...where it is approved or Delayed or turned down...I know..

 

[Drm50]

It’s very simple, Illegal means not legal. As my opinion, any one illegally in the country once IDed and documented would be forever barred from citizenship. This would stop a lot of assistance to illegals like we have going on today.
Illegals caught with any weapons should be IDed and deported immediately
Illegals injured or killed while committing crimes should have no legal protections or ability to bring civil cases.
In other words if ATF would pursue illegals with the zeal they use on average citizens the country would be in better shape.

 

[The Gila Bender]

I have to wonder how this guy lived in the USA and acquired so many firearms over such a long period of time without being detected or red-flagged. Did he have a bank account, State or Federal ID, apply for credit, or do anything that required a history or background check?

 

[LVSteve]

NO states do thier OWN....a 4473 is called in to the FBI in Clarksburg,Wv...where it is approved or Delayed or turned down...I know..

In NV the FFL calls Highway Patrol.How exactly they are linked to the FBI I don’t know, but given the speed with which they approved my purchase, I am 99% certain that my immigration status was not checked. I know this because for other purchases pre-citizenship the delay was 25-90 minutes.

 

[Muss Muggins]

NO states do thier OWN....a 4473 is called in to the FBI in Clarksburg,Wv...where it is approved or Delayed or turned down...I know..

Wrong. Here's a map . . .

(If you have trouble seeing it, just search for "Which states don't use NICS?"

 

[hkcavalier]

Of course this thread strayed. The inability for an illegal alien to legally buy firearms is a boring topic. It's good to see that most of us recognize that the Bill of Rights doesn't convey certain rights, it recognizes that they exist as natural rights that a just government can't take away.

Let's not get gun nut myopia on this. There are lots of hypotheticals that can shed some light. If an illegal is walking through the park late at night and is assaulted, said person has every right to defend his or herself against harm. Stuff like these are where the sticky situations come into play. Every single action by an illegal alien isn't automatically illegal, like a permanent blanket effect applied to their lives. Though it's certainly difficult to live within the law in all other respects.

The OP's case is certainly not this at all. A lawbreaker breaking the law, a simple tautology that doesn't need excessive hand-wringing or hair-splitting.

 

[BC38]

The subject of this poorly-titled article appears to have lied on a 4473; *that* is the issue. Do not pass to, do not collect $200.

But this thread has strayed away from that a bit. While I agree that citizens have some rights that non-citizens do not (such as the right to vote), the Constitution (and its Bill of Rights) applies to *everyone*. Human right are human rights.

Yes they are. But as stated before, convicted criminals forfeited their rights when they broke the law.
The right to choose who they associate or assemble with.
The right to unfettered movement and travel.
The right to not have their personal effects searched at any time for any reason.
The right to vote.
The right to own firearms.
All of these rights are denied criminals. And they should be.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Well, maybe while they're on probation or parole, but not after. The only one of the rights you listed below that is pretty much permanently forfeited is the right to own firearms, and if your felony conviction/sentence is styled correctly, you'll get that right back once you've finished supervision. In states that allow felons to vote, it's possible, but difficult, to vote from jail. It's a very commonly held misconception that felons lose the right to vote forever. . .

Yes they are. But as stated before, convicted criminals forfeited their rights when they broke the law.
The right to choose who they associate or assemble with.
The right to unfettered movement and travel.
The right to not have their personal effects searched at any time for any reason.
The right to vote.
The right to own firearms.
All of these rights are denied criminals. And they should be.

 

[BC38]

Well, maybe while they're on probation or parole, but not after. The only one of the rights you listed below that is pretty much permanently forfeited is the right to own firearms, and if your felony conviction/sentence is styled correctly, you'll get that right back once you've finished supervision. In states that allow felons to vote, it's possible, but difficult, to vote from jail. It's a very commonly held misconception that felons lose the right to vote forever. . .

Yeah, I was referring the period they are incarcerated and/or on probation/parole.

I realize a lot of rights are restored once the criminal has "paid their debt to society". Though when you look at recidivism rates a lot of them never get to that point.

Illegal immigrants haven't satisfied that requirement. And the right to gun ownership - the one permanently forfeited right - is precisely the one this thread is all about.

 

[Buford57]

I agree with your assertion that the rights enumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights are not granted by those documents, but rather they are acknowledged and guaranteed by those founding documents.

HOWEVER, criminals FORFIET those rights when they commit criminal acts. Thieves, murderers, or even criminal invaders do not (or should not) have the same right to come and go as they please that a law-abiding citizen enjoys. Nor should they. They forfeit those rights when they violate our laws.

When we throw out that principle in the name of "human rights" we throw the whole concept of JUSTICE and consequences for unlawful behavior out the window. The ultimate result of that mindset is anarchy.

I have to disagree. The fourth, fifth and sixth amendment rights do not only apply the first time someone is accused of a crime. Repeat offenders still have right to counsel and a jury trial and to not have a confession beaten out of them. Do we really want our rights to be so fragile that an alcohol possession conviction at age 20 means you can be executed for murder without a trial at 50? Of course we restrict the right of those convicted of crimes to come and go as they please...for a given period of time. Only murderers and certain repeat violent offenders lose that right for life. And here we are, you and me exercising our mutual right to free speech.