Feeding a 952

Kp321

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I am seriously considering purchasing a 952 for bullseye competition. I am currently shooting a 52 and have a good load worked out for it. What loads work best in the 952? 125 or 147, heavy or light? I have heard that it is easier to shoot a 952 than a 52. I do well with the 52 so I have high expectations.
 
I totally love my 952's but the "nicely used" 952-1 is the one that I shoot, my mint 952-2 is in charge of the top shelf of my safe.

It is embarrassing to admit in an open forum that I haven't yet found the sweet spot in ammo for these yet. As it stands right now, if I were called upon to do my absolute, hands-down best slow fire Bullseye work, my 952 would not get the call.

I would take the 845. Or my 52-2.

My long term goal is to get my 9mm ammo where my .38 and .45 ammo is... and my .32 Wadcutter ammo is.

As for what a 952 and/or 9mm is capable of, I believe that in direct comparison, 9mm is far more difficult than .38 Special to shoot well, and it seems to me that twice the pressure is the reason why.

It may not sound like it, but make no mistake-- I totally love my 952. But for the end you seek, if it was me, I would look for a different gun.

I very much look forward to what others have to say.
 
As I read your post one more time, your last sentence stands out to me. If you shoot a 52 very well (many do not!) then I honestly think that a 952 would frustrate you.

If you are well funded ;) then I'd love to see you get a 952 and master it and report back, so that I could learn! But 952's are pricey and if your budget takes a lot of caressing to get one, I can't honestly suggest it for this project.
 
I tried some 147 but found no reason to favor it. Just the standard 115 is fine, find the powder load that you feel comfortable with. I change around so not to get stuck in a rut but generally mid to slightly above loads feel best to me. I don't really like the soft loads, do occasionally do some hot ones and they are pretty accurate. Bullseye and 231 never seem to feel good, #5 and Autocomp are my favorites. I have four of them that I shoot regularly and don't notice any difference. If you miss, it wasn't the guns fault.
 
I am on-board with Sevens.

Like you are thinking now, when I bought my 952 all those years ago, I was expecting a Model 52 that shot 9MM. The Model 952 is not even close.

I was very dissapointed. I hand loaded lots of combinations from every friends "Most Accurate Load" but could never make the ammunition and 952 come together to form that intimate relationship thare is between a Model 52 and it's shooter

Yes the 952 is a more accurate firearm than the production 9MM auto-loaders, but it is no heir to the Model 52 Crown

Even my Walther P88 could out-shoot the 952 when the two used the same ammunition. My Six X5s and X6s truly put it to shame

952.jpg


Now, the 952 family of auto-loaders are VERY good looking firearms, but they are just not a Model 52. At this point I can not even remember the last time I fired it

If you want to stay with Smith and Wesson and need Model 52 style performance, the Model 845 will make you happy. Obviously it is a 45ACP firearm, not a 9MM and it has a different look and feel

845-1998ls.jpg

I kind of agree, if you and your're Model 52 are one, you might want to stick with it

At least until you can test fire a Model 952 ahead of buying one.
 
I have READ that you must keep the velocity up for accuracy in a 9mm.

But the guys are right. My PPC friend tried hard to like a 952 to go along with his 52 (different divisions in the match) but it would not equal the PPC 9 even though he does not like the double column frame.
 
I've heard you say this about the PPC-9/952 before but THAT experience simply has to be isolated to the two particular guns in that experience. Simply put, the 952 and PPC-9 have the same top end. Rear sight is slightly different on the PPC-9 and front sight is taller to match.

Otherwise, slide, barrel, fitment, lock-up, bushing, these two are same same. If one distinguishes itself over the other, that is a nuance separating two specimens, not a consistency applied across all the examples of each model.
 
I understand the concept. Not many of us have the opportunity to do side by side comparison of high end guns.
The difference between those two individual specimens was not small.

I would buy a 952 right off the bat if I could get an early one without grip safety. Just for fun, I am not a BE shooter nor PPC any more.
 
The no-dash model is quite scarce and while no 952's are low in price, the no-dash is nearly impossible to get for low money. But the grip safety of the dash 1/2 isn't what I'd call obtrusive. For darn sure, it doesn't negatively affect the trigger pull either.

Seven of the 952/PPC-9 between myself and my best shooting bro. Add a 3566 Limited with a PC fitted 9mm barrel and it's basically 8 of them. The 6-inch long slide has a different feel and balance, but they all shoot similarly in my experience.
 
A now deceased friend of mine had a 952 and we tried many different loads, but none of them outshot plain old aluminum case115 gr. CCI Blazer!!

Neither of us could believe it, but with Blazer it would easily equal his 52...
Go figure on that one!!

Randy
 
Hay Sevens!

". . . (the) 952-2 is in charge of the top shelf of my safe."

Most excellent. It's one of those things - whether words, mousetraps or whatever - that draws a "wish I hadda thought of that one."

Later.
 
I certainly appreciate the candid comments on the 952. I am still looking into the purchase, maybe with my eyes a little wider open now. I love the looks and feel of the 52, would just like a 9 for ammo convenience and greater mag capacity. Not needed for bullseye but would be a nice Steel Challenge pistol. Would definitely be unique on the firing line.
If I get one, I will share my experiences with ammo and loads here.
 
If possible, find out what ammo the 952 was developed with. I'll bet it was something off the shelf. Also-I would think that a CZ Custom shop 9 would out shoot it for half the price with good Check ammo. JM2CW.
 
I hope you find one and we can all get a little better at shootin' 'em by swapping loads and ideas! :D
 
If you're a bullseye shooter, and you're looking to "up your game" especially in regard to your CF scores, skip the 952.

For that kind of money you can buy a top of the line Pardini Bulleye model set up for 32 ACP (great 50 yd gun) with a choice of 5" or 6" barrel. You'd proably be able to get it with the 22 kit as well and still come out ahead.

The Pardini can't be beat or matched by any John Browning style semiauto. The superior ergonomics and vast range of adjustability is in it's own league. Plus you get proven 1-1.5" 10 shot machine rest accuracy at 50 yds.

Jim
 
I do not have a S&W Model 952, but I have had a Model 39-2, currently have a Model 439, Model 6946, a Tanfoglio TZ-75 Series 88, and a Argentine FM-90. All of them are reasonably accurate pistols, but I have found the 9x19 cartridge and pistols to be finicky regarding bullet weight, bullet design, and powder when it comes to accuracy.

I think the Model 952 is a beautiful pistol, but its caliber leaves something to be desired when it comes to precision accuracy. There are, in my opinion, plenty of other calibers that are more adept at precision target shooting.
 
I just purchased a 952 myself, for pretty much the same reasons as the OP. I love my 52-1, but prefer the convenience and cost of shooting a 9mm, and thought the 952 (952-2 in my case) would be the ideal alternative. I've only had an opportunity to take it to the range once since I got it, and I'm really liking it so far.

The guy I bought my 952 from locally, who shoots competitively, told me that the gun really likes Speer 124 TMJ Clean Fire ammo. This ammo is not normally stocked at your neighborhood gun shop, and unfortunately, I live in MassO'TwoSchitts, where pretty much all online ammo retailers won't or can't ship to, so I'm having a hard time obtaining any. The one place that will ship here has been out of stock for a couple of months now. Alternatively, I ordered some of the regular Speer 124 TMJ (non-Clean Fire) ammo to try out, along with some American Eagle 124 TMJ Clean Fire equivalent. I haven't had a chance to try either of these out yet, and can report back after I have done so.

All that said, I'm pretty much a novice shooter, so this gun and any ammo I use will be a lot more accurate than I am, so my findings won't be all that conclusive.

And now, since this post is worthless without pics, here's the only meaningful part of my post...my 52-1 and 952-2 shown together:

full



Frank
 
While I don't own a 952(but I do have a 52),I have a very accurate CZ Shadow 1 in 9mm that I shoot almost the same scores as my 52 single hand.
The 9's high pressure working range is what makes it tough to find the right combo to give accuracy and reliable functionning(the .38 spl is so easy to work with).
In my CZ,my accurate load is 4.3gr HP38(or W231) with a cast 125gr.It will keep 25 shots within 4'' at 20 yds single hand(exept for 1 or 2 operator induced flyers).But I had to work a lot to get to this result as I am not a fan of HP 38/W231.I had tried many other powders before getting there.
Hope your gun likes it!
 
This is a bit of a strange thread. Its kind of like which is the best pickup, Ford or Chevy. I imagine the one you own is your favorite and therefore the best. But some own both. I would guess the 9mm is the most widely used round in the world and the 952 is certainly one of best made for that caliber. The 52 is an interesting but somewhat unique gun. Did the "mid-range 38 special" round even exist before the 52 was made? Don't know but it certainly has a lot of devoted fans. A comparison of how these shoot doesn't really make much sense. Most obvious is the pressures involved. Shooting 52 is about like shooting a 22 while the 952 involves controlling the recoil. That can vary by the numerous powders and load variations for the 9mm. The recoil in a 52 would be called a mouse fart load in the 952. You would probably stop and check your barrel for a possible squib. As for accuracy I would say which ever you shoot the most will become your go to. The 52 is kind of a one trick pony (a very good trick) while the 952 has many bullets weights and variations available so you find what feels best to you. I don't know what to say about a gun I've never heard of in what is considered a bit of an antique caliber, 32ACP. I'll have to check that out but I doubt I'll be buying one. I have never heard of anyone having feeding problems with any round in a 952 while the 52 can be rather sensitive to case length.

I guess my (long) point is, own both or neither. There are plenty of good reasons to own both. They kind of look the same but that's where it ends. They both probably shoot better than you are capable of so thats a good excuse to practice, practice, practice.

Rant over, need to go take my meds.
 
Interesting rant, but some of the points you bring up can be discussed -- I think a lot of what you've said here varies greatly on perspective.

It's natural to compare the 52 and the 952 because the 952 is pretty much the modern evolution of the 52. That's how it was conceived, by request from Bangers Distributors. "So you don't make the Model 52 anymore... and very few folks would buy a 5-shot .38 Special that only runs one very specific load. Okay then... why don't you build for us a gun that looks very nearly the same, with the kind of precise fitment that the 52 had, but chamber it for 9mm?" And Smith & Wesson's answer to that was the Performance Center's Model 952 no-dash. One of the PC's earliest jobs (as per a Roy Jinks letter) was to finish up the very last production, three-alpha prefix Model 52-2 pistols, and they used that experience when they created the very first Model 952 pistols.

So, regardless of how different the .38 Wadcutter at 14,000 PSI and the 9mm Luger at 35,000 PSI are as cartridges (I agree BTW, and said so above), at their heart, the Models 52 and 952 are very similar and share obvious lineage.

I would disagree about 52 being a one-trick pony and the 952 somehow being different. If anything, both of these pistols are seriously one-trick ponies. The 952 can run a few different bullet weights and shapes, the 52 is more limited, but neither pistol has a wide array of use -- they are very specifically target guns. The 952 is a full steel, full size, target sighted, mere 9-round capacity single stack target gun with a light trigger. It's "bang" is louder and more substantial than a 52, but they are both game guns that are at home punching paper. Yes, you can make them do other things, just like you can take a lawn mower and drive it across the county because it has an engine and a steering wheel, but it's still a lawn mower. (And I take a Model 52 on an annual prairie dog hunt out west! ;))

The .32 ACP in a target gun is a recent development as easier brass to work with than the original .32cal target round, the .32 S&W Long. The Pardini is a desgin you'd recognize, these kinds of guns have been competing in the Olympics and World Championships for decades. I have a similar Walther GSP in .32 S&W Long (wadcutters only, just like a Model 52) and it's ability is awe inspiring.

I don't think it's entirely accurate or fair to the discussion to default to the old gun forum stand-by "well they all shoot more accurately than I do, so...." (fill in the next sentence that somehow makes the point.)

I have NEVER found solace in that argument. Fact is, I can pick up my Model 52 and punch a tighter group absolutely every single time on paper than I can manage with either of my 39-2's, my 639, my 3906's AND my 952-1.

To say that all of these guns are more accurate than I am simply does not explain why every single time I shoot paper with my 52-2, 845, Walther GSP... I can print tighter groups, every single time... than I can with my 952-1.

For sure, the 952-1 "is more accurate than I am, guess I just need to practice..." but on the same day, before and after and twice, three or four times back to back, I'm going to take the 845 and out shoot the 952-1.

This doesn't make me want to practice and blame myself for not being a better shooter. This makes me want to figure out what I can do to make the 952-1 shoot much more like the $2,070 MSRP gun that it was in 2007. This makes me want to figure out better ammo for it that the pistol can send more consistently. This makes me want to explore why 60-100 years of centerfire classic Bullseye competitors, the best that have ever lived, have done everything they can to avoid the 9mm and embrace the .38 Special and the .45 ACP when taking titles, setting records and winning competitions.
 
Mike Patrick at Michigan Ammo did some of the early work on loads for the PPC9's.

Tom
 
Same experience with a 952 years back.
Just didn't live up to the hype/expectations.
Sent it down the road and went with a CZ and never looked back.
952-2.jpg

Just my experience, YMMV.
 
Sevens, I know you are a reloader and I am not so please excuse my naivete.

Is it possible/Have you tried attempting to duplicate the "magic" .38 wadcutter load in the 9mm case?


I.E. very low pressure and a wadcutter type bullet seated deep in the case?

Are they not both very close (if not the same) bullet diameter?

Are twist rates the same in both pistols?

I'm guessing it wouldn't cycle the action, but springs are cheap and come in all different sizes, so that issue could be addressed if a sufficiently accurate load could be developed?

John?
 
I wrote the earlier post recommending the Pardini 32. My reason for doing so is tied into the first sentence of the OP.

I am seriously considering purchasing a 952 for bullseye competition.

If you know the bullseye game, specifically the 2700 match, you know how demanding it is. Three 900 point stages, or sub-matches: 22, CF, and 45. The CF (centerfire) is the wild card. Lots of folks just use their 45. But, others look elsewhere for variety or an edge. The CF stage is the ONLY one where the 952, or 52, is allowed. Both have little in common with most 22s or the 1911. So, as long as you're going to select a third gun, and have to learn a different trigger, etc, why not go for the most competitive advantage?
(NOTE: the 32 ACP version was researched for years to find the best barrel diameter and twist for the 50 yd line. The older 32 S&W WC version, like the Walther GSP etc, use a slow twist that is not suitable past 25M.)

Besides, if you use the Pardini with the 22 upper, you can use the exact same grip and trigger for 22 and CF. It's a no-brainer! Especially for the cash outlay we're talking about.

I was just watching the finalist stage of the Men's 22 rapid fire match from the Rio Olympics on youtube. Every single finalist used a Pardini (even the Russian guy).

YouTube

There is, however, one compelling reason for making a 9mm your CF Bullseye gun. That is, so you can use it as a "service pistol" for CMP competition. (Yeah, the same guys who sell surplus Garands!)
For a number of years the only allowable choice was the Beretta 92 (AKA M9) pistol. More recently, the CMP has changed their rules to allow any legitimate service pistol from a long list. The 952 is not one of them! But you will find the Glock, the SA XD pistols, and various SIG Sauers (P220, 226, etc.).
The classiest is arguably the Swiss made SIG Neuhausen P210.

The 952 is a nice pistol, to be sure. But, if you're a competitive precision bullseye shooter, there are better choices.

Jim
 
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I was a pretty involved PPC shooter from the early 80s through say 2015, when the first PPC 9s came out (remember LE only) they shot 115 grain duty type ( held to higher inspection) ammunition very well,( no so with cheaper type 115 ammo) to no surprise light weight TC or HP was the type ammo carried by most agencies that used 9mm in that day.
They really liked the WW 105 "green" ammo at 1200-1300fps, and because of the bullet weight almost no recoil. These were 5 inch and 4 inch guns and they won many matches . Guys on my team had about 12-15 of these guns and they all would shoot 1" or better at 25 and 1.5-2.5 at 50.
Surprisingly when the 6" guns came out, not the same result, they shot the light faster bullets fine enough at 25, but not at 50. Then we went to 147 subsonic type rounds, bingo the groups went back down.
(correspondingly many LE agencies had switched to 147 or heavier type duty ammo) , SW stated they had changed twist rates to accommodate what was being used by LE at the time. Most of the shooters I knew did not reload, most of the teams were sponsored and shot match or duty WW , Rem, Fed or Atlanta Arms. All shot a duty/match type round at least at 50 yards as the inconsistency of the cheaper type bullets was apparent at 50 yards.
I have no experience with the 952, so can speak to that, But even with PC guns there was a batch of 6" PPCs that had to go back to the factory because they just wouldnt shoot at 50, this was one of the later runs and the barrels were replaced and the guns performed fine after that.
 
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Sevens, I know you are a reloader and I am not so please excuse my naivete.

Is it possible/Have you tried attempting to duplicate the "magic" .38 wadcutter load in the 9mm case?


I.E. very low pressure and a wadcutter type bullet seated deep in the case?

Are they not both very close (if not the same) bullet diameter?

Are twist rates the same in both pistols?

I'm guessing it wouldn't cycle the action, but springs are cheap and come in all different sizes, so that issue could be addressed if a sufficiently accurate load could be developed?

John?
Okay, when I first read this suggestion... I figured "just no way." I have since thought more about it and darn it, this idea is quite intriguing.

There are some genuine roadblocks. First one that presents itself is that a .38 wadcutter as the 52 uses (the swaged lead HBWC) is a L-O-N-G bullet! Now this thing absolutely cannot be loaded flush in a 9mm case, I can't see that being even close to possible.

It would have to stick out a bit. Here... a cast DEWC might be better for this experiment because it is a solid slug that has a shorter overall length.

Even better would be a lighter wadcutter bullet. I believe these exist but this might be a chase to find them as I am not a bullet caster.

I think there is a chance that a 952 could actually feed this odd ammo, but again, some bullet will need to be well proud of the case mouth. It can't be a lot as the pistol's chamber won't tolerate much.

As for the load, I'll have to start quite low because I will have nearly -NO- combustion space inside the 9mm with a wadcutter shoehorned in there. You can bet that if I can get mock-up dummy rounds to actually chamber, I will begin load development in a different pistol first and a 952 later.

Finally, there will need to be a pretty large change in recoil spring weight because the typical energy of a full spec 115/124gr 9mm round is far higher than what I'd be trying with a wadcutter partially out of a 9mm case.

In all honesty, I see very little chance of success with this idea.

However, it does certainly make me wonder if simply dropping the bullet speed 200-250 fps alone doesn't make a radical difference in how the pistol might stabilize a bullet for the purpose of pure accuracy.

It drives me a little NUTS when folks talk about an all-steel 9mm pistol and how it's so heavy "it recoils like a .22!" <--NONSENSE, it goes off like a flashbomb at 35,000 PSI regardless of the platform because it's a damn high pressure round and it has no chance whatsoever to ever feel like any .22.

But maybe HALF'ing the pressure of the round can give some results on paper?

This sort of thing may be a wild goose chase, but it is also one of the fun and oddball tangents that hobbyist handloaders enjoy! ;)
 
I don't use a 9mm for Bullseye but watching the discussions on the Bullseye-L forum over the years 9mm loads seem to run the spectrum from what works best in a 1-32 twist barrel to what works best in a 1-10 twist barrel. The different twist rates favored different weights and speeds for accuracy.

Things would then get in the weeds when trying to compare jacketed to lead loads or someone would claim something worked that didn't match other's testing.

Probably the only folks with the best data are the users of barrel testers.
 

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