Felons and Black Powder

[misswired]

Recently overheard a "Felons can legally carry black powder firearms" conversation. A quick internet search and I'm still not aware of the facts.

Some States say Yea......some nay?

 

[pawncop]

Back when I was working the pawn shop detail, (in Texas) I noted felons pawning black powder firearms and since they are not firearms under federal law I did not file charges. Local DA agreed.

 

[meaneyedcatz]

On a side note, I own two black powder revolvers and a rifle.
I have discovered why the war between the states took four years.
They had to reload! Reloading the colt navy is a pain.

 

[shell627]

Many years ago when I lived up north.Quite a few bikers I new owned and kept black powder revolver around.That kept them out of trouble when police or parole officers came visiting.

 

[joe44va]

In Virginia black powder arms are considered firearms. YSMV.

 

[Erich]

Some States say Yea......some nay?

Correct. And it's often more complicated than that. Before taking any action along these lines, a person who's concerned about his legality should consult a local criminal defense lawyer about the relevant laws in his jurisdiction.

 

[sigp220.45]

And then there is the federal definition:

The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device.

Sounds like a blackpowder firearm is indeed a firearm.

 

[Bozz10mm]

And then there is the federal definition:

The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device.

Sounds like a blackpowder firearm is indeed a firearm.

If you can order a black powder gun and have it sent right to your house instead of going through an FFL, then it is not a firearm in the eyes of the feds. If you must go through an FFL, it is considered a firearm. So, muzzle loaders are not considered a firearm. Also any bona fide antique made prior to 1898 would not be considered a firearm. My understanding is that this includes modern replicas that can not be easily converted to cased ammo. If you go to Midway USA and order a Pieta cap and ball 1851 Navy pistol, they will mail it to your house.

 

[handejector]

Here ya go-
Below, you can see a PDF of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
You can find it here- Laws on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives


On the Page 1 is the definition of a firearm-

[FONT=&quot](3) The term ‘‘firearm’’ means (A) any weapon(including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]So, we need a definition of an "antique firearm".[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is on Page 2-[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](16) The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means—[/FONT](A) any firearm (including any firearm witha matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed am-munition, or(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is de-signed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘‘antique firearm’’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]{highlights mine}
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[Texas Star]

The dead buried in huge numbers at such places as Antietam, Shiloh, and Gettysburg would regard black powder guns as firearms...

I guess modern legal terminology is at odds with that theory.

That said, I can't recall any robberies in modern times with black powder weapons. Or, with archery tackle or swords.

Maybe felons don't know about Robin Hood and his merry men? Or what my ancestors did to the French with bows at Agincourt...

 

[schutzen-jager]

In Virginia black powder arms are considered firearms. YSMV.

here in NJ also -

 

[Camster]

If you can order a black powder gun and have it sent right to your house instead of going through an FFL, then it is not a firearm in the eyes of the feds. If you must go through an FFL, it is considered a firearm. So, muzzle loaders are not considered a firearm. Also any bona fide antique made prior to 1898 would not be considered a firearm. My understanding is that this includes modern replicas that can not be easily converted to cased ammo. If you go to Midway USA and order a Pieta cap and ball 1851 Navy pistol, they will mail it to your house.

Here in NY, I can order direct all the black powder handguns that I want. No PL required.
However, if I want to load them or shoot them, it then becomes something that must be listed on a pistol license.

 

[StrawHat]

Don’t get too lost in the “word of the law”. If you beat a person to death with a stick, you are still charged with murder.

Use a C&B revolver to rob someone and I imagine it would be considered armed robbery.

Kevin

 

[LoboGunLeather]

People should not overlook the simple fact that in addition to federal laws there are also state laws, and occasionally municipal ordinances, that may impose different restrictions. Last time I checked the Colorado law defining a "firearm" mirrors the federal law, but without the exception for "antique firearm". As I recall, Colorado law also states that the prohibition applies for ten years after conviction and/or completion of sentence (while federal law applies a permanent prohibition). My first impression is that black powder muzzleloading arms are included in the Colorado legal definition, but it is possible that there is case law that applies. If I were asked by a convicted felon I would strongly advise seeking competent legal counsel prior to possessing such items.

 

[andy52]

I'm pretty sure here in Missouri felons cannot own any type of projectile weapon right down to a " Pea Shooter"..

 

[ispcapt]

If you can order a black powder gun and have it sent right to your house instead of going through an FFL, then it is not a firearm in the eyes of the feds. If you must go through an FFL, it is considered a firearm. So, muzzle loaders are not considered a firearm.

Here's where a person who is not familiar with law and legal research gets in trouble.
Whether it can be sent to your house or not or go thru an FFL has nothing to do with the definition of a firearm. SIGP220.45 gave the correct definition of a firearm.
Where people who are not versed in the law get confused and provide erroneous information just as above, a BP firearm is considered a firearm. What Bozz10mm is referring to is an exemption of how BP firearms can be processed. That does not take BP guns out of the classification of being a firearm, only that those type of firearms are exempt from certain FFL requirements. 2 completely separate issues. Being exempt from going thru a FFL does not mean it's not a firearm.
John Pierce does a very good job of explaining it.
The old wives' tale about black powder firearms and felons - The Law Office of John Pierce, Esq.

 

[2152hq]

Here in NY, I can order direct all the black powder handguns that I want. No PL required.
However, if I want to load them or shoot them, it then becomes something that must be listed on a pistol license.

In NYS, convicted Felons are restricted from possessing/owning any firearm that falls under the Federal GCA68 deffinition of 'Antique'.
(As well as firearms as the GCA68 defines them of course)

So no BP muzzle loading, or pre 1899 firearms allowed for Felons.
It wasn't always so.

It wasn't till 2007 or '08 (?)that the BP muzzle loaders and felons issue had much attention in NYS.
Then a NYSP Trooper was shot by a felon using a M/L rifle. IIRC the incident was up north,,Lewis or maybe Franklin County.
That put the spotlight on the issue.
The fast acting Legislature ammended the law in 2011.
Convicted Felons had a grace period to sell, gift or otherwise dispose of their previously legally owned 'antique firearms(s)'.

 

[Bill Bates]

Here in Utah a felon and other restricted persons can not possess a "dangerous weapon" and a black powder firearm is considered a dangerous weapon. I suspect many other states and locals have similar codes.



From Utah code
"If you are a restricted person and own a dangerous weapon that is not a gun, you can be convicted of a third degree felony. In Utah, second degree felonies carry a possible prison term of up to 15 years in prison and $10,000 in criminal fines.

(6)
(a) "Dangerous weapon" means:
(i) a firearm; or
(ii) an object that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.
(b) The following factors are used in determining whether any object, other than a firearm, is a dangerous weapon:
(i) the location and circumstances in which the object was used or possessed;
(ii) the primary purpose for which the object was made;
(iii) the character of the wound, if any, produced by the object's unlawful use;
(iv) the manner in which the object was unlawfully used;
(v) whether the manner in which the object is used or possessed constitutes a potential imminent threat to public safety; and
(vi) the lawful purposes for which the object may be used.

 

[Wyo]

Black powder firearms (muzzleloaders and pre-1896 cartridge firing weapons) are not "firearms" under federal law. However, there are also state laws, and such weapons are "firearms" under Wyoming law. Thus, a convicted felon in Wyoming may not own or possess ANY firearm, including muzzle loaders, matchlocks, etc. I guess the thinking is "a gun is a gun." It sort of keeps things simple for the not-so-bright among us.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

In Virginia black powder arms are considered firearms. YSMV.

In Virginia, if I point my finger, is that a firearm?