Felony Menacing, You Could Learn A Lot From A Dummy

[Smoke]

In 2007 I made a split second decision that almost cost me my freedom, my livelihood and my civil rights.

I was driving down Union Avenue in Colorado Springs, I passed some guy on the right and he took exception. He followed me from just South of Pikes Peak & Union to Fountain and Academy. Blinking his lights, yelling at me acting like he was going to ram me and generally road raging.

First thing I did was call 911. I gave them a full description of both cars, our location, my name and my cell number. So they had everything they needed to find me.

The other guy pulled way up close behind me and waved something at me. I reached down on my seat and picked up my gun, still in the holster and held it up. Without giving it any thought I told the dispatcher that what he was doing and what I had done in response.

She immediately informed me that I had broken the law and told me I needed to turn myself in at the Sand Creek substation. I didn’t see any way out of it (remember they had my name, phone number, license plate number and full description of my car) so I complied.

I walked into the substation and explained myself to the desk sergeant. He called dispatch, got their report and told me that if the other driver called in with in the next few minutes and reported me he would gladly arrest me for Felony Menacing and do everything he could to ensure that I spent the whole 2 years in prison.

I don’t think the other driver had even realized what I did and he never called. After 15 minutes the cop gave me a lecture and released me.

It only took a second of poor judgment to get myself into a mess that could have affected the rest of my life and that’s one of the reasons I’m quick to see it when I read posts from other people that look like they made the same mistake.

 

[usm1rifle]

Glad you came out of it and thanks for the lesson.

 

[Doug M.]

I find it hard to believe that there is no defense that goes with a reasonable belief in the possible need for the use of defensive (lethal) force. That's crazy.

 

[Smoke]

I find it hard to believe that there is no defense that goes with a reasonable belief in the possible need for the use of defensive (lethal) force. That's crazy.

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here

 

[Johnmuratore]

Ha, ha
Smoke, I thought it was just me.

 

[gfy1960]

I find it hard to believe that there is no defense that goes with a reasonable belief in the possible need for the use of defensive (lethal) force. That's crazy.

He had other choices. Pull over, take the next turn off, wait for police to show. Yelling and one finger salutes are not life threatening situations. Had he been rammed and stopped and the other driver approached him. That's a different story. IMHO

 

[hangnoose]

THEY ARE NOT FOR SHOW

"GENERALLY" but if rules weren't broken now and again we wouldn't need them in the first place. You gotta keep in mind they can get you into trouble as well as out of it. I can totally relate as their was no shortage of steroid induced road ragers where I was from. A look at the business end of a 45 by a machete waiving idiot instantly stopped a potential bad situation from escalating. It could have gone a whole different way however.

 

[Doug M.]

In Washington we have similar statutes, but there are defenses to the charge based on various circumstances that would make it reasonable to believe that displaying the ability to apply defensive force would control the situation. The way that statute reads, if you present a firearm, it better be smoking immediately after you present it. I wonder if the general "defense of self and others" provision would provide a defense to the charge.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Gfy1960 had a good answer, but Doug M.'s objection was the first thing that came to my mind when reading the OP's story about the police reaction.

 

[snubbyfan]

 

[feralmerril]

Smoke, this one is for you. I copied this from a thread I had responded to here a few years ago. Things are different today than they were fourty years ago when I got involved in this story. Right or wrong, here again is what happened:
Okay, since I am now a old harmless grouch and probley will never meet anyone here I will tell one on myself that happened almost 40 years ago. I was in the wrong in a lot of this, done some stuff many of you wont approve of, but will tell it like it happened. I had a 1964 Cadillac coup Deville. I just had liability on it as it was almost 10 years old and it wasnt my principal ride, but was a old jewel. I had a GF that wanted to go near downtown los angeles. I had been working tons of OT so she was driveing. I really didnt know the downtown area well either. A car pulled out of a bar`s parking lot and T-boned us in the passenger door where I was sitting.
I yelled stop! She stopped but they scratched out. I said catch up with them, I want that plate number! (Insurance purpose`s) Now that was like turning angie dickason loose in the police woman series! The rest of this story was right out of the script of two dozzen tv movies! They hit a on ramp to a freeway with her right on their tail. They took the next off ramp probley thinking she couldnt hang with them in our heavy cad but she did. Right at the bottom of that off ramp they turned into a parking building that had the arm down and it went flying. Yeah I know we all seen that 20 times on tv! I seen the attendant diveing for cover as we both flew through! They made a wrong turn and she had them boxed up. I couldnt get my smashed door open, but they came back in reverse and smashed our front end. Diane was backing up and they hit us twice again as she was backing up! This thing was now definetly out of hand. All I wanted was their license number. On top of that, had they just got out and we discuss this thing I probley would have never got the police involved and would have let their insurance handle it in a fashion their drinking wouldnt have been a factor. But now we were beyound all that. Now that she had backed out they scratched out again. She again took after them despite me hollering for her to stop. At the next turn for the next level they spun out. Diane was really into it now! She said I am going to get those ---"gentilmen". I was bellering for her to stop as she broadsided them! I yelled for her to get out as my door couldnt open. She got out. As I was sliding out on her side I spotted my s&w model 60 on the floor board that had flew out from where I had hid it under the drivers seat. I snapped it up and went up to their vehicle. They had locked themselves in and didnt want to come out. In a fit of anger I stupidly hit the drivers window with my gun. Of course the window didnt break but it locked my gun up. I didnt know it at the time, but a handloaded speer shotshell capsell that I always kept on top bounced forward into the barrel, tying the gun up! The driver got out and said, Hey man! Why the gwan? Can not we settle this thing without gwans? The irony of that statement really got to me! I shifted the gun to my left hand and knocked him over the back of my car with my right. I think it knocked him out for a short time. The other guy now was out and telling me how they would kill me if I didnt have that gwan! Again that got to me and I did what potentialy was the stupidest thing I ever done in my life! "Here, diane, hang onto this", and handed her the gun! I went to work him over. His eyes got big, he kept backing uphrowing kicks at me. I heard diane yell, stop!, or I will blow ya away! I looked and saw the driver I had knocked down had got up and stupidly was advanceing on her! She had the gun in both hands on him! Now I had taught this girl to shoot and knew she just might! I stepped back to her and took the gun. I told her to take the car and go hunt up some police. She did. While she was gone I spent what seemed like 20 minuets holding these guys and listening to their insults and death threats telling me
how they were going to find me and kill me when this was all over. Also they openly were plotting their story with each other for when the cops showed up. About then I seen two guys in plain cloths walking towards me like they were going to pass me at a angle. I asked them, you guys security? Yes, said one. (I worked security too, and somehow you just know.) I then noticed one had a revolver stuck in his trousers. I said I have my hand on my gun in my pants pocket. I am going to pull it out and give it to you with my forefingers, okay? I then gave them the short version of what happened and said we should be hit with cops soon. We sure did. This was near downtown LA and I think most of the shift showed up! It looked like a police funneral! The first two showed up. Thank God the first guy that showed probley was one of the biggest, coolist cop`s
I ever met! He did put a shotgun on me and patted me down. They went over and hooked up the two guys but never did me. When things slightly setteled down I asked one of them why. He just said my demeaner. I knew that. The GF showed up in the back of one of the police cars. She told the cops that while she was chasing them they threw stuff out of their car. Funney, I never seen that! They took her and I to the downtown station for PW. At one point one of the cops had me pry open my own gun to get the ammo out! Finally they took her and me to see the watchmaster. She was a little scared but I had a good idea what was happening. He listened to what the cops said, leaned back and pointed at me and said take him ta jail and throw barney oldfield in with him! The cops just grinned, drove us to the smashed cad and gave me my gun and ammo back! Lucky for me they had warrents out on the driver, I never did ask for what. Had those cops and politics been like they are today, I would be getting out just about now!

 

[Smoke]

Merril, this ones for you

Write the damn bk

 

[Smoke]

The whole point of this story is think before you act especially if a firearm is involved. I have no idea if I would have beat the charge or not but I bet you I would have gone to jail that day had the other guy called in.

In Colorado if you bring a gun into the situation you have just threatened deadly force, the gun never has to come out of the holster.

I see people posting frequently on all the internet gun forums about how they used a gun to intimidate someone who hadn’t actually credibly threatened them and I wanted to share my experience in the hope that it would stop one of you (in the most generic sense) from making the same mistake and maybe not getting lucky like I did.

That’s the main idea I’m trying to communicate

 

[feralmerril]

Frankly, at least in my experiences, cops have given me the benefit of their common sense a number of times. I know of course you cant count on that but it`s worked for me. Even the LAPD and LA county deputys did several times. Of course most of those incidents were in the era of 30 to 55 years ago.
I know all the many BS warnings to clam up and demand to speak to a lawyer are popular here, but I have never done that. My dad told me several times, "If you dont know what to say, tell the truth!" Its worked for me. It no doubt helped me several times that as a guard I packed on the job and that job required security clearances. We carried a guard card and gun card. Those two things automatically showed LEO that we at least had passed state required schooling and had a good record. It was a leg up. Now technically it shouldn't make any difference but in the real world it did.
I still say, "Your demeanor counts for a lot".

 

[walkin' trails]

OP, a former co-worker of mine had a similar situation years ago when someone tried to run him off the road on a freeway ramp. He said that he yelled and warned them that he was armed even though he did not have a gun within reach. He did have his police union decal on the back window if his car, and that probably had a negative effect in the situation. The DBs backed off, but called the police, who decided to arrest the co-worker. He spend the next several months facing charges. He went to court, but the complaintants didn't show up so he walked. While he walked with his record intact, it cost him a lot of money.

For road rage perpetrators, victims need to realize that a vehicle is a 4-6,000 pound guided weapon. Primary defense against a road rager is defensive driving and calling the police. Distance is safety even though you may not be able to outrun the perpetrator. Get to a safe place. Remember that a handgun bullet won't stop a car, but may cause a bigger problem to public safety if a vehicle at speed no longer has a driver. If you find a safe place to stop, position your vehicle where it offers you the tactical advantage. Hopefully LE will be able to respond before you have to use a weapon.

Some times road rage incidents are sparked from an otherwise decent person driving with their head somewhere else. Don't make the situation worse. Granted, the smallest of things might set someone off, but have a plan that stresses defensive driving and communicating first and foremost.

 

[Smoke]

Slightly off topic but the quickest way that I have found to deescalate a road rage incident is to say I'm sorry (whether you did what ever they think did or not)

 

[Kentucky Dave]

From a brief perusal of case law I wouldn't bet my freedom on it in the situation above, BUT for the record:

From Colorado Jury Instructions:

It is an affirmative defense to the crimes of Attempted Second Degree Murder, First Degree Assault, Second Degree Assault Causing Bodily Injury, Menacing, Attempted Second Degree Assault and Attempted Third Degree Assault that the defendant used physical force upon another person

1. In order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believed to be the imminent use of unlawful physical force by the victim, and

2. the defendant used the degree of force which he reasonably believed to be necessary for that purpose.

 

[feralmerril]

We always hear you dont pull your gun unless your going to use it. I think it would be better stated, "Willing to use it". It seems there is a following here that thinks if I pull my gun and DONT use it (as a civilian), I am likely to face brandishing charges, therefore lose my guns IF I am lucky etc.
Anyone have any idea how many times a cop pulls a gun in his career and never or next to never used it? Maybe my friend was lying to me, but as a LAPD officer he said he probley averaged pulling it once or twice a night! That sounds outrageous to me, but he was "careful".
Sorta like the story of the samari`s sword. Legend has it that once it was ever pulled it couldnt be sheathed until it had blood on it!
Now I dont believe brandishing a gun except in a extreme situation, but I also will never say never.
So if a perp or attacker changes his mind, throws down his piece and says "Kings" as he`s looking down your gun barrel, are we really gonna send his saddle home to save your guns? I aint, and I think the odds of keeping your guns and good name are good if your a open honest guy.

 

[feralmerril]

This doesnt fully apply to this thread but let me tell it anyway. I was driving my truck with my dog, rusty in san fernado valley. It was a wide street with 4 lanes. A 1956 chev with 4 kids having fun at my expense were zooming up my back end, stop short of hitting me, let me get ahead then repeat about a half dozen times in a half mile or so. Finaly we get to a light and I sort of engineered it so we were now side by side at the light behind several cars. All windows were open as it was a hot day and I already was hot so to speak. I yelled over to them, ya try that again and I will pull yer head off and ------! The driver yelled over, ya man, pull over I can take ya! With that I opened the truck door right there, got out and reached for closest which was the front seat passenger. Hey man! I didnt do anything he hollered. Now the light had changed and the cars ahead of us had taken off. Rusty jumped out of the truck and started running ahead through the intersection. The driver scratched out and I dont know if he was running away from me or was deliberatly trying to hit rusty! Rusty was running ahead of his car and fortunatly jumped out of the way. All traffic had stopped all directions for another light change or two while I tried to collar rusty. Now ya all can make your own judgement on my sanity but thats the way it went. I was raised in a different era by a father that would have kicked my butt had I done otherwise.

 

[walkin' trails]

Again, I say that defensive and evasive driving is the best defense to a potential assault on the road. While we can't predict what some bonehead in another car might do, neither can he/she predict what you're doing.

Statistics have been compiled showing the mere presentation of a firearm (handguns) has difused many potential life threatening situations each year without a shot being fired. The difference between brandishing versus defensive use of a firearm is a matter of how scared a person is that something terrible in the firm of loss if life or serious injury may eminently occur. You must be able to articulate what you did. Of course, you have a minor incident on the road, and the person who believes that they were horribly slighted and must teach you a lesson starts threatening you with his vegmhicle. He gets in your tail, you speed up. He pulls along side and you brake hard abd take the next exit. He appears to have something in his hands, you can't tell what it is but it might be a cell phone that he's trying to call the police in you because he's the neighborhood watch person from hell. Whatever the case, you don't let him be in aposition to take a shot at you . Furthermore you or someone in your vehicle should be on the phone calling police. You park yourself at a safe location with your engine between you and him. He gets out with a weapon while you remain in your vehicle. Can you articulate at that point that you reasonably believe you are at risk of eminent loss of life or serious injury ? I'd say at that point, any motorist on the defensive would truely be scared. So you don't have to use a firearm and the police show up and catch bonehead outside your car, whose going to get in trouble now?

In this day and age of good people getting branded as bad, we have to keep our cool and use our heads.