FFL dealer question....

[Andy Griffith]

Does a Type 1 (dealers or gunsmiths) or type 2 (pawnbroker) have to have to be open to the public at all?

I ask this, because I bought a firearm from a feller across the mountain off of one of the auction sites- about 30 miles away from me. He is a type 1 licensee.

He tells me that he "isn't open to the public" and I will have to have it shipped. I asked if maybe we could meet somewhere then, and he said no...I am tempted not to buy it even though I committed to buy it on the auction site.

I never would have bought it if I knew I couldn't pick it up.

I understand if someone is a distributor, but this is ridiculous.

Sorry, I was off...it's 45 miles.

 

[01shm]

Alabama is FTF no paperwork, maybe handshake. Across st.lines you get into the 4473 etc...

I might be wrong, but, dats the way we been doing it.
Not sure whether that answers your ?, but the guy sounds like he don't wanna sell..

 

[Andy Griffith]

He is an FFL, so I must send it to a dealer or fill out the 4473.

I will call the Atlanta office tomorrow and see if he is a "gunsmith only," which if he isn't- I believe he has to have "business hours," and not just a gun show or net presence, correct?

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Andy,

It seems to me that a few years back when BATFE cracked down to reduce the number of "kitchen table Type 1s" that they either did put in place or began more stringent enforcement of the "business hours" requirement. They also, at the same time, required that Type 1s show documentation that they do business out of a recognized place of business, and required Type 1s to provide a local business license demonstrating that. Again, this caused a huge drop in the number of "kitchen table" FFLs.

That said, I am pretty certain that what you surmise is correct. I'll be interested in what BATFE has to say. I hope you'll post the results of your phone call.

Even if he declares the firearm to be personal property, if he holds a Type 1 he cannot legally sell any gun without requiring a 4473 from the buyer, even within the same state.


Bullseye

 

[m1gunner]

I have run into several of these in Ga. They seem to get the license and associated storefront, then close the store after a year. They go on selling to "government customers" only, whatever that means.

Heard the same line from 3 different guys, all in different parts of the state. And, no, I wouldn't buy from them no matter what the deal, sounds way too squirrly to me.

 

[Andy Griffith]

All I know is I will call BATFE on Tuesday. Another member let me know Monday is a holiday.

I like to buy stuff and see it whenever possible. This kinda rubbed me the wrong way- I'm not going to pay tax and shipping. He said nothing about not being able to pick it up.

 

[LVSteve]

My regular FFL is a "kitchen table" guy. He sells to LEO's, ex-military who are referred to him and folk like me he knows from his day job. He is a stickler for paperwork and the ATF seems to like him. Works for me.

 

[Steave]

I'm a dealer and can't answer your question, however, I don't think he has to be open to the public; I do know that listing hours as appointment only is fine. A few years ago a friend of mine wanted to get his FFL in Dallas city limits and use his home address as the licensed premises, because of the zoning ATF would not give him a license. He wanted an 07/02 FFL, NFA Manufacturer. He fought ATF for what seemed like ages, but in the end they issued him a license, but he could not do any over-the-counter retail sales.

 

[Eagle Guns]

FFL Question

Andy,this should answer your question.It's a copy of an old FFL application.

 

[oldman45]

Let me approach this from a different angle.

I have a long time, very good friend that sells out of his house, so to speak. He even sells full auto weapons. Yet he will not allow buyers at his house. He meets them some other place, shows them the type guns they called about or else orders one in for them and does the paperwork once a decision has been made.

It is not because he does not like people. It is because people are more prone to break into a house than a business. Houses are more prone to being empty at times. Honest gun buyers talk to others that may not be honest just to tell about all the guns this seller has in his home.

Another reason for not allowing strangers in the home is local zoning laws. I have an office in my home but I cannot allow clients to come to the home for business other than notary work. I find it best to not allow strangers in my house for any reason. There are too many indications I am a gun onwer to allow those I do not know inside my home. Heck, I even worry about some of those I already know.

 

[Bullet Bob]

When you say "across the mountain", does that mean he's in a different state?

 

[handejector]

All I know is I will call BATFE on Tuesday.

I understand your angst, but let's look at this before you mess it up for a lot of folks.
ATF does require business hours for a regular 01 dealer. It does not require them for a gunsmith or an appraiser. They also require all normal business requirements like the state "short gun dealer" license, sales tax account, and a business license. Now this is where it gets real gray, and I believe you could mess up a good thing. MANY local zoning boards will let one conduct a MAIL-ORDER business from a home, but NOT a business that has customers coming and going. See what oldman says below. So, the dealer tells the zoning board he is mail order only, and gets a license. He puts rather short business hours on his FFL application, tells ATF his business license is approved, and gets the FFL.
IF you get ATF involved, we may later see some regs that hurt us all.
I thought you bought a store and had an FFL??????

Another reason for not allowing strangers in the home is local zoning laws. I have an office in my home but I cannot allow clients to come to the home for business other than notary work. I find it best to not allow strangers in my house for any reason. There are too many indications I am a gun onwer to allow those I do not know inside my home. Heck, I even worry about some of those I already know.

Dead on, oldman.

 

[NKJ nut]

Does a Type 1 (dealers or gunsmiths) or type 2 (pawnbroker) have to have to be open to the public at all?

I ask this, because I bought a firearm from a feller across the mountain off of one of the auction sites- about 30 miles away from me. He is a type 1 licensee.

He tells me that he "isn't open to the public" and I will have to have it shipped. I asked if maybe we could meet somewhere then, and he said no...I am tempted not to buy it even though I committed to buy it on the auction site.

I never would have bought it if I knew I couldn't pick it up.

I understand if someone is a distributor, but this is ridiculous.

Sorry, I was off...it's 45 miles.

Current FFL applicants have to have hours when they are open to the public. Without this their application will not be approved. The only exception to this would be if the FFL is solely for gunsmithing. There are no FFL's solely for doing gunshows or internet sales. FFL's may sell from their place of business or at gunshows but they can't legally meet people on the side of the road and do gun transfers.

Andy, you speak of this FFL being over the mountain from you. If that happens to be across a state line, then you will not be able to go directly to him to pick up a handgun. The dealer will have to ship it to an FFL in your state.

 

[Andy Griffith]

The licensee in question is located in the state of Georgia, just a bit south of the mountains, in the foothills if you will...

Lee, I was asked if I wanted to buy a gunshop, and I declined. I don't want to make a large fortune a small one by getting into the gun business. I defer that to all the professionals on the board.

I do not want to ruffle any wheels on anyone, and I respect each of the fine gentlemen that makes a run of a business from his home. I do sometimes get a bit flustered and say things I shant...ergo, "going off half cocked," etc... I do have a temper that rarely gets the better of me- the thorn in my side.

The gentleman in question will not even meet me away from his place, and that is what galls me! I will try to resolve it with him and let him know my great displeasure and annoyance. If he is unwilling to resolve it, I will just consider it a moot point and move on just to respect others here that try to run a legitimate business.

 

[handejector]

He does seem like a "real accomadating guy", doesn't he.
I hate that for ya.
So, I suppose you have to pay the shipping, and pay a dealer to accept it??
How much are those fees?
Maybe, if you explained that total figure could be avoided by letting you fill out a 4473, he might do it. Tell him you have a toting license, so there won't be a BG check.

 

[Andy Griffith]

So, I suppose you have to pay the shipping, and pay a dealer to accept it??

And sales tax.

Let you know tomorrow, or when I get an email back.

 

[ColbyBruce]

Did the seller explicitly explain all his quirks on the site where you bid on the gun? If not, unless you truely have to have it, I would pass. He should take some responsibility for his lack of disclosure. I know of a guy like that outside of Cleveland, GA.

 

[Andy Griffith]

No, he didn't explain that I had no choice except to have it shipped.

I received an email back stating that he "only do internet sales" but he would meet me somewhere...I wonder if he read this thread?

It only took five emails and this thread. Although he didn't say anything about it, I stated he needed to put this part of his terms in his listings (that he will not sell "across the counter").

 

[ColbyBruce]

I met a guy yesterday at a county police precinct and sold a gun. I am glad you don't have to pay the extra fees.

 

[sheriffoconee]

I met a guy yesterday at a county police precinct and sold a gun. I am glad you don't have to pay the extra fees.

That's ironic, I did the same thing....
broad daylight too....