FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[rwsmith]

This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.

In conclusion I think that a bullet similar to a Speer 135 grain short barrel bullet similar to that in the .38 special version but weighing 165 gr for 9mm or 180 gr. for .40 S&W would most closely emulate the .45 ACPs effectiveness.

I've been loading 125 gr. 9mm bullet in the belief that that is a 'good compromise' in velocity and weight. After thinking this up, I'm wondering if a heavy bullet designed to expand at low velocity could be a more effective round, which would also apply to the .40 S&W.

IF this is true, it gives a lie (in the PRACTICAL world) to the "Less mass, high velocity" theory in favor of the "High mass, less velocity with a bullet designed for the job" theory.

At present, a commercially available bullet that would lean in this direction would be something like a 158 grain Speer Gold Dot, which is short of what I'm looking for, along with being designed for about 950 ft/sec in order to expand. If somebody cares to test this, it would at least tell us that this is the right direction. I also think that a heavy cast HPSWC would be a good test. I'm going to look around on the net to see what testing has been done.

Arguments? Questions? Comments? Conjecture? Am I full of mud????

UPDATE: I just watched a Youtube video of gelatin tests of a 9mm 147 gr Speer GD. 14" of penetration with expansion of about .59" (Wow). This idea just may pan out.

 

[Mistered]

Did the you tube vid give the load data for the 147 gr gold dot used and the distance from the gelatin?

 

[fredj338]

My opinion on bullet performance is simple. If the bullet makes 60-65cal, penetrates at least 11-12", doesnt matter what size it started out. The 147gr HST driven at 900fps has proven a good performer. At handgun vel we are just punching holes. I would prefer a 9mm jhp that hits 45cal vs a 45cal fmj.

 

[alwslate]

You're doing way too much thinking. By now it would seem that the old
nonsense that all bullet wounds must be made by projectiles of at
least .450" to have any effect would have been put to rest. But I guess
not.

 

[ralph7]

Think you are trying to put a saddle on a race horse.
The key to reliable expansion is velocity and you probably need more powder capacity to achieve the velocity necessary to have a 165 grain bullet expand reliably.

 

[cadmike]

I think if you want 45 ACP performance, then shoot 45 ACP.

 

[jake1945]

I used to carry a S&W 9mm auto. I now carry a S&W M&P 45. I use hollow points. I didn't over think the issue of 9mm vs 45acp. I just got a 45.

 

[Duckford]

My opinion on bullet performance is simple. If the bullet makes 60-65cal, penetrates at least 11-12", doesnt matter what size it started out. The 147gr HST driven at 900fps has proven a good performer. At handgun vel we are just punching holes. I would prefer a 9mm jhp that hits 45cal vs a 45cal fmj.

11 is dead failure. If it gets 11 and not 12 it doesn't make bare minimum, and it can ONLY be read as a failure when gel is used as a medium. If it can't make 12, its a failure. That's the problem with a lot of 9mm rounds, even the best, is that they hover around the bare minimum, and have a nasty little problem with failing the minimum with certain loads. But that means the load failed, not the test.

Keep in mind minimum expansion means something as well, these new designs with petals read out better than what they actually are, because the tips give them big maximum expansion on paper, but the total and minimums are WAY lower because of the massive gaps around the sharp, small petal ends. A perfect mushroom .65 does more damage than a .67 maximum expansion petal that has big pie shaped sizes between each other, and a minimum of .50. Sharp petals don't damage much tissue because of their small mass, and sharp shapes, meaning most of the damage is still being done closer to the core. Take max expansion with a grain of salt, and the large bores have less expanding to do, and have better minimums and totals often times when max expansion in petal length is similar.

As for OP, I agree completely. The best way to maximize the potential of the .355 caliber is heavier bullets, and is why the idea is so appealing. I' heard some theoretical talk about the military throwing around the idea of the 9x21 cartridge, and that would be an advantage for heavier bullets and greater power at pressure. In any case, I'm going to be take up some of this work later this year, shoot some gel myself, and see where this potential can go.

 

[OKFC05]

This idea of slow heavy bullets in 9mm/.38 caliber cartridges was cutting edge technical thinking ..........by the British in WWI.
It works as well as it ever did, but has been surpassed by modern defense bullets and powders in energy, keeping necessary penetration.

 

[Steve912]

"How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45?"

Load FMJs in both. Both have basically identical terminal
effects, in FMJ flavor, on the street--tho the 9mm will
be more likely to pass-through.

 

[robertrwalsh]

It is very easy to make a 9mm perform like a .45. Increase it's diameter by about 0.097 inches.

 

[patrickd]

In my opinion, the modern 9mm defense loads are even better than .45's. They penetrate just as deep, expand just about as much and you can fit more into a magazine.
Back in the day, the .45 was the thing, but today not so. The modern 9X19 is as or more lethal on a person as any .45 has ever been.

 

[Nevada Ed]

There are 158, 160 and 165gr 9mm bullets out there ..........

The only problem is.........
a little 3.5" 9mm barrel is not going to cut the mustard getting
to the world of the .45 cal. with bullets larger than the 147gr.

Good luck.

 

[dannyabear]

While any 9mm may expand, a 45 will never shrink

 

[Watchdog]

How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

You can't.

 

[Rule3]

It's simple. You do what the Govt (FBI) did)

You start with a 38 special. Then after that doesn't work. You go to 9mm. Heck, that is no good. Then go to 10mm. Well that is to potent, So you scale back to the 40 SW. Now that is to snappy for lots of recruits, so you go back back to the 9mm.

I may have the order messed up, but something like that.

The ballistics guys will calculate it for you.

Smaller bullet going fast or bigger one going slower.?

Somewhere there is something that will work if you actually hit the target!

 

[Clovishound]

Perhaps the best way to ask this is how to get the most out of a 9mm.

I don't get into a lot of specifics, but I have no doubt that a good 9mm SD load will fill the bill for self defense. Most of the detractions of 9mm are based on military use, which mandates FMJ ammo.

Take a look at these:

Inceptor Preferred Defense | Polycase Ammunition

The bullets are available for reloading in both the composite and solid copper. They don't expand, but the shape produces a very large wound channel with excellent penetration. If I were determined to use a .380 for SD, I would be looking really hard at these bullets.

And don't forget that accuracy trumps caliber every time.

 

[rwsmith]

How is it nonsense.....

You're doing way too much thinking. By now it would seem that the old
nonsense that all bullet wounds must be made by projectiles of at
least .450" to have any effect would have been put to rest. But I guess
not.

I didn't say it was a requirement, but in order to duplicate a .45 non-expanding bullet, a 9mm would have to expand to about .45 " in diameter and the Gold Dot tests show that is possible. And again, a Gold Dot short barrel design expands around 850 which is the target velocity for our 9mm come .45. I just need one in .45. Lacking that I think that a cast HPSWC would be good for experimenting. Also, I hear and read all the time where people say a .45 is a very good stopper in a handgun. if that's nonsense, can you tell me why and tell me where I'm mistaken and maybe what ISN'T nonsense? If I'm full of mud, can you set me straight?

I do appreciate the critical thinking.

 

[Arik]

It's simple. You do what the Govt (FBI) did)

You start with a 38 special. Then after that doesn't work. You go to 9mm. Heck, that is no good. Then go to 10mm. Well that is to potent, So you scale back to the 40 SW. Now that is to snappy for lots of recruits, so you go back back to the 9mm.

I may have the order messed up, but something like that.

The ballistics guys will calculate it for you.

Smaller bullet going fast or bigger one going slower.?

Somewhere there is something that will work if you actually hit the target!

If you read what one of THE FBI guys here wrote, the 10 was never loaded all that hot. Something like 950fps. It was never a super potent round. Certainly not what everyone on the internet claims

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[Arik]

I didn't say it was a requirement, but in order to duplicate a .45 non-expanding bullet, a 9mm would have to expand to about .45 " in diameter and the Gold Dot tests show that is possible. And again, a Gold Dot short barrel design expands around 850 which is the target velocity for our 9mm come .45. I just need one in .45. Lacking that I think that a cast HPSWC would be good for experimenting. Also, I hear and read all the time where people say a .45 is a very good stopper in a handgun. if that's nonsense, can you tell me why and tell me where I'm mistaken and maybe what ISN'T nonsense? If I'm full of mud, can you set me straight?

I do appreciate the critical thinking.

It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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