Finding history for my 1884 Springfield?

[johnt671]

Is there any way I could use the serial number to learn more about my rifle? I had it checked out a gun shop to see if it was safe to fire, which it was. He sugguested getting an aftermarket firing pin as the original era pin was still in the weapon and they are a weak point on this model. I've found a lot of general information, but I'd like to see if I can find some for my rifle. The shop said it was made in Lancaster PA, but others say it wasn't.

I was trying years ago to trade him for an AR-15, but he said the Springfield was worth way more than an AR, but he wouldn't sweeten the deal.

 

[rburg]

Books, there are many of them. Dixie Gun Works used to buy every on they could find. Their journals list the features of each serial they had.

The firing pin problem is when fired all is well, when dry fired the pin tends to break. Not hard to replace, but if you don't take the "gun shop" owners advice, at least get a replacement to hold.

 

[Muley Gil]

It was built at the Springfield Armory in Springfield, Mass.

 

[billwill]

I shot a friends that was using handloads, modern powder and cream of wheat filler. What a hoot to shoot. I know one thing, I would not want to be on the receiving end of that 45-70.

 

[DWalt]

M1884s are the most common of the trap door Springfields, and have lower values than some of the other models in equivalent condition. You can find considerable information about them on the internet. Carbines are of far more interest to collectors than rifles, and are priced accordingly. But as is the case for all firearms, originality and condition are the primary drivers of value. It is seldom that one runs across a high condition trapdoor Springfield of any model. I have recently seen some average condition M1884 rifles at gun shows which were priced at around $1000. When I bought mine back in the mid-1980s (at a gun auction), I think I paid around $200 each for them.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the M1884 rifles have the Buffington wind gauge rear sight. I have two of those rifles and shoot them occasionally. They are safe to shoot so long as the cartridges are not heavily loaded. I load my own using Pyrodex, a modern black powder substitute, although light charges of fast burning smokeless powders are certainly OK. Fillers are NOT needed for such light smokeless powder loads. Consult any good reloading manual. There is a lot of reloading data available, as the .45-70 cartridge is still with us and both ammunition and reloading components are readily available. The use of lead bullets only is recommended as the Springfield barrels are made of a fairly soft steel.

Replacement parts are not too difficult to find. The aforementioned Dixie Gun Works (Union City TN) used to carry about every part needed, and I suppose there are also other sources for parts. I have never had a problem with original firing pins, nor am I aware that there even is a firing pin problem. In any event, it is very simple to replace if necessary.

"The shop said it was made in Lancaster PA"
That statement says a great deal about the very low knowledge level of whoever made it.

BTW, if the stock is original, it may have a date stamp on it.

 

[Iggy]

The U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle Information Center

 

[Frank46]

The 45/70 trapdoor springfield firing pins were either made from steel or an aluminum bronze alloy. Dry firing is sort of a no no as you can get burrs where the channel is for the firing pin retention screw is located on the right hand side of the breech block. I had one with the ram rod bayonet and shot it for a couple years with .462 diameter cast bullets. The bore on that rifle slugged out at .460. Frank

 

[Old Corp]

I also have an 1884 rifle, a gift from a family friend many years ago.
Used to load the empties with a moderate dose of BP or Pyrodex and a .457 round ball seated in a 'poly-patch'. Sealed with a little Elmers.
Fun to plink with.

 

[2152hq]

Any firing pin can break. I don't recommend dry firing any gun.
The T-D firing pin if anything can have a problem with getting rusted in place. A result of the use of BP/ammo of the era and lack of maint,,not necessarily the design. The bronze alloy pin came along to try and sidestep that problem.
Getting stuck in the forward position can cause a real problem. Otherwise it usually just ends up getting battered to death at the back end and tough to remove.

It should move freely in the breech bolt, check the tip for a nice smooth rounded profile and no more protrusion than necessary.
Make sure the breech closes fully,,the thumb latch should block the hammer fall as a safety feature if the breech isn't fully closed.

But you never know what has been done to these old rifles to make them go bang so check it over.
Likewise the hammer notches in the lock and
it's worth pulling the lock just to see if it still has a bridle,,that part is a favorite to burgle from the T-D as the lock still works well w/o it and the part brings a few $$ at a show or now on the net.
It should be in place or the lock will kind of knock itself apart after some use from not being supported by the now missing part.

Never heard of any US Gov't Springfield Arsenal annex located in Lancaster,PA ...but I've been told a lot of things...

 

[johnt671]

I've had this rifle since the late 70's. I traded for it with a girlfriend for a Hawken .50 cal rifle kit because she was into black powder, even casting her own rounds for it. I've never fired it.

The stock has a stamp with 1884 0n it and it has some dings on it, but it looks like an eagles head and a letter I can't make out followed by PP. The barrel has the Letter A stamped in the middle and an eagle head and VPP The trap door is marked with Model 1884. The barrel bands both are marked with a U. The underside of the stock just behind the trigger housing has a circle stamp with maybe a stylized P in it.

I also have a bayonet for it but it was issued to a another country, but still a nice touch for the rifle.
Thanks for the info .

 

[jag312]

....Carbines are of far more interest to collectors than rifles, and are priced accordingly...

There are a lot of fraudulent trapdoor carbines that are converted from rifles. The carbine barrel has a faster taper than a rifle barrel. An original carbine barrel will have an outside diameter at the muzzle of 0.725 inch. A rifle barrel cut down to carbine length will have a diameter at the muzzle of approximately 0.775 inch. Once you have seen a few, you can spot them without a micrometer or caliper. Most carbines I have seen at gun shows over the years are fraudulent. Some are very good fakes. Some are laughable. Carbines bring more money, and that's is why there are fakes.

I have three original carbines with history. I also have a very good fraudulent carbine for taking to the range for shooting. Most people wouldn't spot the difference. I use a 405 grain soft lead, hollow base bullet with 55 grains of FFg with Cream of Wheat filler. 70 grains was for the Infantry rifles, and 55 grains was for the Cavalry carbines. The reason a hollow base bullet was originally used is because the internal dimensions of the barrel varied. The hollow base bullet expanded to fit the barrel, regardless of the diameter.

 

[rburg]

Something not asked but I'm going to offer it up anyhow...

You can load these things pretty light. They still kick a bit because of throwing a 400 or 500 grain slug. On a bright day if you're shooting at long distances, you can often see the bullet as it gets out a bit. If you're watching, you can see the dark bullet base as it plows a furrow, then jumps up and travels on. Its not at all unusual to see it hit several times. The first time you see it, you kind of wonder what you saw. Once you realize it, you will then end up shooting more just to see. And these old guns were used at Camp Perry and other 1000 yard matches. Some are pretty accurate, even s compared to modern sporting rifles. They just have a rainbow like trajectory as they bounce along.

Someone used to have a sig-line "shoot low, they're riding Shetlands". When ever I see that, I think of the big ole bullets plowing along across a large fiels.

 

[johnt671]

I've heard about seeing the projectile as it went down range. The guy who told me this said he did his own reloads and painted the bottom orange to make it easier to follow.

I took it out today and started to clean it up a bit and found that the firing pin freely moves in the trap door, but is just floating. Should it have a spring on it or does it just move reward when you chamber a round? It wouldn't be fun to have it go off while loading a round I guess. The other thing is the trigger just wiggles around and seems to have a lot of slack until I pull back a little. It then gets tighter and releases the hammer fine when pulled all the way back. Is this normal or is some thing broken in the housing? I'm thinking maybe a spring?

Thanks.

 

[DWalt]

It's fairly easy to detect a fake trapdoor Springfield carbine if you know what to look for. I couldn't say that all shortened rifles resembling carbines were modified with an intent to deceive. Back in the day, many just appreciated the appearance, handiness, and light weight of the carbine, and just took a hacksaw and wood rasp to the rifle. As a trapdoor rifle could be had for only a few dollars, it was no big deal to "sporterize" one.

One can also find fake (or modified) .30-40 Krag carbines made by cutting down a Krag rifle. I once found one of those in a museum, and everyone there had assumed for many years it was the real thing until I brought it to their attention. It was removed from display.

Regarding ammunition, the .45 cartridge went through a bewildering number of major and minor changes during its service life since its first production in January 1874. The first cartridge for the Springfield rifle was the .45-70-405 which continued until 1882, thereafter replaced with a 500 grain bullet which had better long-range ballistics and burned powder more efficiently. The first Springfield carbine loading at about the same time was the .45-55-405. A lighter load was appropriate because the lighter-weight carbine had somewhat greater recoil when used with the rifle loads, not a good thing when firing a carbine from horseback. That cartridge required over-powder pasteboard wads to take up excess volume in the case, and that was done until 1886. Thereafter, the 405 grain bullet was simply seated deeper. Early carbine ammunition was so-identified on the headstamp until 1886. Even without a headstamp, the carbine cartridge is simple to recognize by just looking at the shorter and more deeply seated bullet.
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There is no spring associated with the firing pin. Your trigger is OK.

 

[Iggy]

Midrange trajectory at 1000 yards with a 500 grain bullet is 127 feet.

I was shooting at an iron buffalo at 1000 yards and Itchy came up and asked if she could try it.

I explained the sights etc. She stood there and fired the old rifle. She lowered the rifle and said "Did I miss?" BONG!
She handed me the rifle and said. "Never quit on a miss!." and walked away.

Cavalry Troopers had a maximum height and weight limit to keep from overloading their horses on long expeditions.. Those 500 rounds kicked those little guys so bad that they almost refused to fire the carbines. The lighter bullet and reduced powder charge was the result.

 

[johnt671]

https://images49.fotki.com/v1658/photos/3/3814093/14609301/20180120_1205231-vi.jpg

A picture of my Springfield.

 

[scooter123]

Take look at Hickok45's video on youtube on his trapdoor Springfield. If my memory is correct his is an 1884 and there were many of these guns marked 1884 that were basically Parts Guns assembled by independent shops from surplus parts sold off by Springfield. While I'm not saying yours is a parts gun but you should take a look at the video and confirm if I am remembering correctly.

One other thing that comes to mind concerns to your firing pin. I am bit of a fan of Winchester Lever Action rifles and with Winchester the rifles with Black Powder Bolt assemblies used a firing pin much larger in diameter than the later Smokeless bolt assemblies. As I understand it using smokeless powder ammunition in a rifle with a Black Powder bolt could lead to blown out primers and a jammed rifle. While my experience may not have any application to your Springfield it's another area you may want to look into.

 

[Watchdog]

What an excellent, interesting, and informative thread.