Vanilla Gorilla
Member
Ooooh. I've never used that ignore thing before. I like the way that little grey strip sits among the meaningful posts.
Flying Ashtrays
- Thread starter photocosmo
- Start date
OP
photocosmo
Member
Something wise forum member MK posted yesterday has made me think (ouch! I hate when that happens). While I certainly don't give a RA what the muscular Texan who thinks I watch too much T.V. and his posse of arrogant know-it-alls think of me and while the feeling must assuredly be mutual I would however like to offer my sincere apology to the many good people on this fine forum who have had to endure my occasional B.S. over the course of my 150 or so posts. You are the salt of the earth and I salute you! Also kudos to the admin. and moderators who work long and hard to make this one of the most informative (and entertaining) gun site on the internet.
Thank You
Thank You
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Well, I for one want to be one of the first to accept your apology.
Folks don't usually take real kindly to "the new kid on the block" coming in with a chip and daring it to be knocked off attitude.
Logic will tell you that the higher velocity of 9mm ammo with less cross-sectional area is going to have less "drag" as it goes through any material, even human flesh. That is why the opinion is that 45ACP ball will penetrate less than 9mm ball.
Just a word to the wise too by the way. Don't try to force your way into a place of respect. That will come with time and posts if your information is credible and demeanor correct. Taking on folks that have thousands, and tens of thousands combined, posts isn't going to get you to the head of that line.
Remember, that's just a word to the wise.
canoe on the yukon
Member
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2009
- Messages
- 466
- Reaction score
- 36
photocosmo,
Some of your remarks were a bit out of line but I also thought the comment that you watched too much TV was also out of line.It seemed to be afterwards that the digs and jabs increased.
I do find it interesting that several new posters who are also obviously young have done FAR WORSE and no one said anything.
In every group there is a certain amount of CRONYISM that I find disturbing.It's found on internet forums too.It reminds me of a mob mentality and it also reminds me of sharks circling when they smell blood.Once one insulted you,several joined in.That reveals a great deal about someone's character.
You are not on my "ignore list" and as long as you ask something respectfully,I will try to respond respectfully.
Some of your remarks were a bit out of line but I also thought the comment that you watched too much TV was also out of line.It seemed to be afterwards that the digs and jabs increased.
I do find it interesting that several new posters who are also obviously young have done FAR WORSE and no one said anything.
In every group there is a certain amount of CRONYISM that I find disturbing.It's found on internet forums too.It reminds me of a mob mentality and it also reminds me of sharks circling when they smell blood.Once one insulted you,several joined in.That reveals a great deal about someone's character.
You are not on my "ignore list" and as long as you ask something respectfully,I will try to respond respectfully.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Although the original "flying Ashtray" was discontinued, wish they would bring it back. Still have 2 350 count bonus packs of em. The gilded jacket and cannelure make for an accuarate and versaltile bullet. Just loaded up some for 45 AR, and also use em in 45 LC.
They were problematic feeders in some older semi's.
They were problematic feeders in some older semi's.
Erich
Member
That's right, zeke: they always were sort of the "acid test" for semiautos "back in the day."
OP
photocosmo
Member
I guess I was sort of wondering if a 9mm HP would be a better choice (all things being equal) than a .45 FMJ or HP? Really.
coz
coz
Erich
Member
Tastes great/less-filling.
Vanilla Gorilla
Member
I've got a few 200 grain Gold Dots at home, and their profile seems to be very close to that of the "flying ashtray." They sure have a very large hollowpoint to them.
Might be worth it to look at them. I'm happy with the 230s, though.
Might be worth it to look at them. I'm happy with the 230s, though.
G
Guest
Since Speer stopped making the original 200grainer I guess I'm going to have to give some of the Gold Dots a try. I haven't checked my personal 'stock' on the older style bullet but I "hope" I've got enough to last a while. I always did like/love that old Flying Ashtray in my .45ACPs and my .45 Colts.
Sentimentally, I am very fond of the old flying ashtray as it takes me back and reminds me of the old days! However, the current crop of 45 ACP ammo, especially the LE ammo, is far more reliable and effective. Even if you can't get the Ranger T or HST, the 230 Gold Dot (available to everyone) is excellent and, last I heard, the FBI still issues the same 230 Golden Saber that you can buy in your local store (sigp220.45 please correct me if I am wrong, as I know you guys were/are planning on going to the Ranger Bonded in some if not all calibers).
sigp220.45
US Veteran
SWAT Lt - I'm still carrying the Golden Saber .45 in my Sig. The issue .40 changed from the 165 grain Gold Dot to a Winchester 180 grain bonded round, but I haven't been issued any yet for my Glock 27. We got a new guy in the office who was issued the 180 at Quantico, but I'm in an Indian Country office at the end of the supply chain and get all the new stuff last.
ArgMauser
Member
Obviously a matter of individual opinion that has been discussed here and elsewhere often and loudly.
Here's my opinion for what it's worth.
Self-defense: .40 S&W, .357 Mag, .45 ACP [TIED]
Larger animals: .45 Colt, .44 Mag, .41 Mag [TIED]
Small game: .32 H&R, .38 Spl, .44 Spl [TIED]
Plenty of room to quibble.
LuddhaBuddha
Member
IMO no. Shot placement is a wonderful thing but at pistol speeds tests on flesh and bone animals have shown that projectiles under 200gr. tend to ricochet when they hit bone. So a well placed shot with a 9mm may go off in a non vital direction. That being said if you don't shoot big calibers well or you tend to not carry the big guns for comfort reasons then by all means get a 9mm or .38 if it means that you will have it with you instead of leaving it at home.
To answer one of your other questions IMO and some may agree, the most effective thing for personal defense would be a 12 gauge with whatever buckshot you want to feed it.
I am also of the opinion that one can never have too much gun or too much ammo as long as you can handle it, there is no such thing as overkill when your life is on the line.
szuppo
US Veteran
It is available to everyone. In fact I saw it for sale all over at the last show.
Having "LE" marked on the box makes it no different than that not marked. I still see people trying to off load it as if it is some premium, super special, one shot wonder bullet due to the box markings. The reality is..... steady yourself. It's the same exact ammo!
David Sinko
Member
Dillon sells a Speer 200 gr. HP bullet that is NOT a Gold Dot. Does anybody know if this is the Flying Ashtray or not?
These bullets really rise to the occasion in the 625, and mine feeds them flawlessly! A few years ago I shot a whitetail through the head with one of these at about 15 yards and 1150 FPS and the bullet went completely through and showed no signs of expansion. That's really all I expected it to do, big hole in and big hole out. I still have some of these left, but nowadays if any bullet has a jacket I'd prefer a bonded core, like the Gold Dot. Otherwise, I'd just use a 255 gr. SWC. The 625 feeds them flawlessly too!
Dave Sinko
These bullets really rise to the occasion in the 625, and mine feeds them flawlessly! A few years ago I shot a whitetail through the head with one of these at about 15 yards and 1150 FPS and the bullet went completely through and showed no signs of expansion. That's really all I expected it to do, big hole in and big hole out. I still have some of these left, but nowadays if any bullet has a jacket I'd prefer a bonded core, like the Gold Dot. Otherwise, I'd just use a 255 gr. SWC. The 625 feeds them flawlessly too!
Dave Sinko
Yes, szuppo, anyone can get the LE marked ammo, sometimes it comes at greatly inflated prices though. The fact is, rightly or wrongly, some of the newer LE designated ammo has had the most R&D devoted to it and, although any handgun bullet is a poor stopper, is usually some of the most effective available. Some of the LE ammo is available to the civilian market and is the same ammo packaged under a different name. Some of it is still designated for LE only (i.e. Ranger T Series) and is not intended for the civilian market (although it can be had).
That said, I'd go with whatever was cheaper and more plentiful as the difference isn't that great, and tactics and shot placement are far more important that what caliber gun you carry or what ammo you put in it. I'd be fine with Gold Dot or Golden Saber if is was more cost effective and reliable in my weapon.
That said, I'd go with whatever was cheaper and more plentiful as the difference isn't that great, and tactics and shot placement are far more important that what caliber gun you carry or what ammo you put in it. I'd be fine with Gold Dot or Golden Saber if is was more cost effective and reliable in my weapon.
GatorFarmer
Member
9mm v. .45 used to be a gun magazine staple in the 80's. Filled a lot of pages and killed a lot of trees. The the .40 SW came out and offered a compromise. Some people didn't like it for various reasons, or still wanted light and vast, thus there have been other compromise and idea calibers over the years - .45 GAP and .357 Sig come to mind.
FWIW, the guys that I knew in college from the rough parts of Detroit (the war zone parts) were the earliest adherents to the .40SW that I can recall meeting and several had a penchant for .357 snubs. For the mid 90s... probably solid choices.
Is a 9mm JHP as effective or more so than .45 FMJ? I don't know. It depends. Do you trust the results in gelatin that we see with JHPs to necessarily come to pass in a human? What do you plan to shoot through? What does your gun work best with? What can you control? How much penetration do you want?
I load my .45s with FMJs. I want 18" or so of penetration. That was the original IWBA standard and I think that they might have been onto something with it. But what do I know, I dropped out of law school and not medical.
My go to 9mm hedges bets. It's a Glock 34 that I just picked up. Gets a bit more velocity from the longer tube, a bit easier to hit with, and holds quite a few rounds. Anything and everything that you can carry - even things like a FAL is bet hedging. Humans are like cockroaches, they can be surprisingly hard to put down or kill when they make their minds up to be so.
There's a certain distrust of JHP among many of the older forum members. I'm not that old, but believe people like Erich and Dr. Vail who claim to have experience with even premium JHPs being cut out of people that didn't do what they were supposed to. I don't know that I believe in energy transfer as a major wounding mechanism (at handgun velocity/energy levels) either. Newtonian physics and all that. What does make sense to me, and always has, is that a big/heavier thing hitting another thing and poking a hole that goes deep does damage. That I can wrap my mind around.
Stick around a bit and you'll find that most guys are keeping (according to preference) a rifle or shotgun handy at home. Those who are particularly serious minded meanwhile (and who's situation allows it) tend to carry relatively large and "powerful" (a relative term with handguns certainly) firearms. Flopshank and the MIA Wyatt Earp are both know to tote big bore N frames (and BUGs) as an example. Some guys carry three guns. Do what works for you and what you're comfortable with. Guess wrong on the extra gear side and you shed some sweat. Guess wrong on the not enough side, you die. Shrug.
I'm not a cop, not a doctor, and not a soldier. I was a simple slumlord who spent formative years collecting rents in crack zone zipcodes (to steal a summation from Spotteddog I think it was). The jewelers, PIs, and other "everyman in a rough 'hood" types I've known and talked to had differing opinions, as did the cops, soldiers, and real and imagined special warfare types. I broke it down thus:
multiple guns that I know work, can hit with, and can get to, and wear a vest. Caliber? Eh. Meet those other criteria, do it daily and make sure you can live with it.
FWIW, the guys that I knew in college from the rough parts of Detroit (the war zone parts) were the earliest adherents to the .40SW that I can recall meeting and several had a penchant for .357 snubs. For the mid 90s... probably solid choices.
Is a 9mm JHP as effective or more so than .45 FMJ? I don't know. It depends. Do you trust the results in gelatin that we see with JHPs to necessarily come to pass in a human? What do you plan to shoot through? What does your gun work best with? What can you control? How much penetration do you want?
I load my .45s with FMJs. I want 18" or so of penetration. That was the original IWBA standard and I think that they might have been onto something with it. But what do I know, I dropped out of law school and not medical.
My go to 9mm hedges bets. It's a Glock 34 that I just picked up. Gets a bit more velocity from the longer tube, a bit easier to hit with, and holds quite a few rounds. Anything and everything that you can carry - even things like a FAL is bet hedging. Humans are like cockroaches, they can be surprisingly hard to put down or kill when they make their minds up to be so.
There's a certain distrust of JHP among many of the older forum members. I'm not that old, but believe people like Erich and Dr. Vail who claim to have experience with even premium JHPs being cut out of people that didn't do what they were supposed to. I don't know that I believe in energy transfer as a major wounding mechanism (at handgun velocity/energy levels) either. Newtonian physics and all that. What does make sense to me, and always has, is that a big/heavier thing hitting another thing and poking a hole that goes deep does damage. That I can wrap my mind around.
Stick around a bit and you'll find that most guys are keeping (according to preference) a rifle or shotgun handy at home. Those who are particularly serious minded meanwhile (and who's situation allows it) tend to carry relatively large and "powerful" (a relative term with handguns certainly) firearms. Flopshank and the MIA Wyatt Earp are both know to tote big bore N frames (and BUGs) as an example. Some guys carry three guns. Do what works for you and what you're comfortable with. Guess wrong on the extra gear side and you shed some sweat. Guess wrong on the not enough side, you die. Shrug.
I'm not a cop, not a doctor, and not a soldier. I was a simple slumlord who spent formative years collecting rents in crack zone zipcodes (to steal a summation from Spotteddog I think it was). The jewelers, PIs, and other "everyman in a rough 'hood" types I've known and talked to had differing opinions, as did the cops, soldiers, and real and imagined special warfare types. I broke it down thus:
multiple guns that I know work, can hit with, and can get to, and wear a vest. Caliber? Eh. Meet those other criteria, do it daily and make sure you can live with it.
