Indeed it is.
FMJ vs Hollow points for carry
- Thread starter BabaBlueJay
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Indeed it is.
Alk8944
US Veteran
Pin-point accuracy is not a necessary factor for ammunition at reasonable self-defense distances, most will probably never use the sights anyway if a situation ever arises!
Do not choose self-defense ammunition based on how accurate it is, choose based on dependability of function in your firearm and perceived effectiveness on target!!!!!!! Bold for emphasis, not yelling!
Do not choose self-defense ammunition based on how accurate it is, choose based on dependability of function in your firearm and perceived effectiveness on target!!!!!!! Bold for emphasis, not yelling!
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uncleted327
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You do what you want, but personally I would never carry FMJ for defense. No expansion, much higher risk of punching through my target and continuing on. Also I've never had a gun that wouldn't shoot some type of HP accurately at self defense distances. Plenty of great 38/357 options to use FMJ. Buffalo Bore makes excellent Keith type soft lead HPs for one...
No one likes to be shot with anything.... never met anyone who volunteered to get shot with a .22 or anything else.
I carry hollow-point ammo in my handguns...... I'm a firm believer in the double tap. Shot placement is more important than caliber or type of ammo!!!
When TEOTWAWKI happens I'll start out with my EDC load..... but at some point I'll have to rely on FMJ ....if I live that long .......
I carry hollow-point ammo in my handguns...... I'm a firm believer in the double tap. Shot placement is more important than caliber or type of ammo!!!
When TEOTWAWKI happens I'll start out with my EDC load..... but at some point I'll have to rely on FMJ ....if I live that long .......
OP
357 magnum is all I shoot.
They carry ball ammo because of the Geneva Convention. All their ammo is FMJ. For me, I don't rely on someone else for what I carry, FBI or the military. My first concern is location. My second is, OH YEA, LOCATION. To date I don't think that there has ever been a person that has been shot that has complained about the bullet he/she has been shot with. Also, the military care more about wounding than killing. Kill one and the rest will come after you. Wound one and at least two will be there to help the wounded person. Not sure if that is still true. I think it depends on the enemy you are dealing with. Radical idiots don't care about their fellow idiots.
Carry what you feel comfortable with but, know the positives/negatives of the ammo you are carrying. If you are shooting at someone in the 30 yard range, you had better be able to articulate why. Some bad guy running away that isn't an immediate threat to you or someone else is a hard justification to come up with.
There is no magic bullet. If you can his a pie plate in the 0-15 yard range, you are good to go. Just sayin.
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In the NMSP, the 357 mag Federal 125 grain JHP was our issue round from the late '70s to the early '90s. All of our use of the round againt felons had satisfactory results. It's blasty, bright flash, relatively (for 357) hard-kicking stuff. Still have a box from those days, and likely won't shoot it just for fun; my wife's 357 is loaded with 158 grain SP.
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9mmPatriot
Member
He would be dead wrong!JFK might disagree.....
Erich
Member
Retired lawyer who worked a LOT of criminal appeals here. Caliber is a concern: I carry ball in .380, as I've worked on several shootings in which .380 JHPs failed to adequately penetrate (and I've never seen inadequate penetration with ball - and only one overpenetration, and that was through a guy's calf). I carry 9mm FMJ (super penetrative, for those haven't played with it) when I go hiking in bear country and am concerned they might be out - did it yesterday, in fact. In general, as a lawyer, I'm pretty concerned about overpenetration (I have worked on overpenetration shootings - they happen) and stuff my guns accordingly.
OP
Do you think 158 grain JHP is ok? I don't shoot 125 grain well but 158 grain shoots similar to my practice ammo.
Yes. My wife's revolver shoots 158 grain JHP or JSP really well; i've killed several coyotes with it and happily carry it on occasion.
OP
Good
I have to do more testing but buffalo bore low flash low recoil seems to be the bullet closest to what I practice with so unless I have unexpected problems I will likely go with that. The next question would be this, should I only practice with my carry ammo or is FMJ fine for practice if it is comparable in shot location in practice?
If point of impact is the same or close out to 10 or 15 yards, I'd use the cheaper stuff for practice.Good
The next question would be this, should I only practice with my carry ammo or is FMJ fine for practice if it is comparable in shot location in practice?
RobertJ.
Member
Why would it be an issue for a revolver?
I EDC a revolver, a 65-3. I've never even considered FMJ.
Now, in an auto, that's another story. I carry JHP in my 4006 when I bring it instead, but it's been thoroughly tested.
9mmPatriot
Member
Since you brought it up....
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=riy5wOSMPXI&fbclid=IwAR1KfDYoiRZm7dJ6xiuvex38d9i_BBLk3sLRI1WysuhI1fsAeZUjWzCFqKQ[/ame]
In response to Q3 I did use the FBI lead HP .38 to free a hostage from his captor. We were slightly more than arm's length apart & the bad guy had a butcher knife in the mouth of his hostage in the lobby of a motel. One round from my issued Model 15 and the suspect went down & his hostage was free, unhurt. The round worked & the suspect lived to do a long stretch in prison.
My truck's LP reflects my choice when I carry a .45...In my carry Smiths it's .38 150 gr. WC's......Ben
I thought u said u have a truck??? All I see is a Dodge Ram. Lol
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Old rule, if going to a gun fight bring a pistol/ revolver that starts with 4 or a rifle that starts with 3.
Nope. It was the Hague Convention.
MsRuth
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Some misconceptions here concerning the use of hollow point ammo use by the US Military.
The Geneva Convention does not address hollow points.
The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention.
Look up M1153 cartridges.
The Geneva Convention does not address hollow points.
The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention.
Look up M1153 cartridges.
As LE we were not too concerned with over-penetration since statistically somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of rounds fired by LE miss their intended targets anyway. We were very concerned about where those rounds, wether they hit their intended target or not, ended up.
absolutely!
OP
I think I'll stick my with flat nose FMJ then because I'm comfortable with it. I can't find any hollow points consistently near me and I can't use an ammo I can't consistently get to practice with. S&B it is, guess the rule about knowing what is beyond my target will have to be followed rigidly, though I'm assuming that applies to hollow points too
Some years ago, when the NYPD used to issue an annual report, they determined 83% of their shots missed entirely.
John Patrick
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I would carry wadcutters over RN or small meplat FMJs. With wadcutters you get a 38 caliber whole, with RN or small meplat FMJs you don't.
But with so many good HP options it's easy to find a choice that shoots well, and with a similar POI as practice ammo.
But I'd choose my carry ammo and then find practice ammo that shoots similarly, not the other way around.
And on that topic, at self or home defense ranges, I've never shot any ammo that had such a different POI from any of my handguns that caused a concern.
But with so many good HP options it's easy to find a choice that shoots well, and with a similar POI as practice ammo.
But I'd choose my carry ammo and then find practice ammo that shoots similarly, not the other way around.
And on that topic, at self or home defense ranges, I've never shot any ammo that had such a different POI from any of my handguns that caused a concern.
Well, I had permits to carry for over 40 years. My rule of thumb, was that if a semi auto was designed for hardball ammo, use that. Feeding reliability is first and foremost. In a revolver, hard cast SWC. Personally, I have no preference for HP, or other styles, and I would not pay a nickel for this boutique ammo that costs 2.00/round, it is a gimmick IMO. It is the same thing as fishing lures that are designed to catch fishermen long before the catch fish
Eddie Southgate
Member
In my 1911's I carry 185 grain HP. In the .32 I shoot whatever I can find until I get the proper molds . Mostly I carry a J frame .38 S&W with 110 g GDHP and a stiff dose of Herco.
Practice with what you carry until you can keep your shots in the face and throat area and penetration becomes a lesser issue . If you can't do that maybe a Judge and some buck shot loads are something you should consider.
Practice with what you carry until you can keep your shots in the face and throat area and penetration becomes a lesser issue . If you can't do that maybe a Judge and some buck shot loads are something you should consider.
Biggfoot44
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In post #36 the OP enlightened that the discussion is .357 Mag ammo fired from M686 . Specifically the moderate S&B 158 fmj vs various full power defense/ duty rounds .
I am somewhat outspoken in more accurate better than not accurate , aim small , miss small , etc , but there's also lots of context involved .
If the OP is consistently hitting 3 inch targets @ 30 yds , my hats off to OP for his marksmanship , and that load is certainly accurate in his gun .
Just a wild guess , but is that at a slow to moderate pace ? Are you shooting strictly reactive targets , or 3 inch aiming points on a larger piece of paper ? Trying to get a feel for the accuracy * in your hands * for the other full power loads .
Making hypothetical assumption that the 3 inch targets @ 30yds is at a relaxed cadence .
For more relevance to defensive situiations , also look to control at rapid firing @ ( arbitrary , pick own similar range) of 15-ish yards . If you can consistently hit 8 inch plate , rapid fire @ 15 yds , you can have a high degree of confidence in your ammo and shooting .
All that said , if you get significantly less rapid control with full power .357 , there's no shame in slightly toning down the velocity . Medium velocity
357 is still plenty potent in any absolute sense .
Ammo availability is still spotty , but until the current panic , W-W White Box 110gr JHP .357 was readily available , and inexpensive . Certainly old school , it is representative of that class of ammo , and performed reasonably well back in the day ( notwithstanding the underpenetrion debate ) .
First part of OP's inquiry , out of sequence :
In .357 Mag , any reasonably HP is Significantly more effective than FMJ . I won't get lost in the weeds quantifying in this thread , but by any measure or yardstick , the difference is significant .
* For Myself * , I would use the .38 +P HP of my choosing before .357 FMJ .
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I don't buy into the idea of " eh , overpenetration doesn't matter , because you're going to miss anyway " . Hitting is your goal and intention , and it is important to have at least one safe backstop ( the felon) to open fire at all in crowded environments .
I am somewhat outspoken in more accurate better than not accurate , aim small , miss small , etc , but there's also lots of context involved .
If the OP is consistently hitting 3 inch targets @ 30 yds , my hats off to OP for his marksmanship , and that load is certainly accurate in his gun .
Just a wild guess , but is that at a slow to moderate pace ? Are you shooting strictly reactive targets , or 3 inch aiming points on a larger piece of paper ? Trying to get a feel for the accuracy * in your hands * for the other full power loads .
Making hypothetical assumption that the 3 inch targets @ 30yds is at a relaxed cadence .
For more relevance to defensive situiations , also look to control at rapid firing @ ( arbitrary , pick own similar range) of 15-ish yards . If you can consistently hit 8 inch plate , rapid fire @ 15 yds , you can have a high degree of confidence in your ammo and shooting .
All that said , if you get significantly less rapid control with full power .357 , there's no shame in slightly toning down the velocity . Medium velocity
357 is still plenty potent in any absolute sense .
Ammo availability is still spotty , but until the current panic , W-W White Box 110gr JHP .357 was readily available , and inexpensive . Certainly old school , it is representative of that class of ammo , and performed reasonably well back in the day ( notwithstanding the underpenetrion debate ) .
First part of OP's inquiry , out of sequence :
In .357 Mag , any reasonably HP is Significantly more effective than FMJ . I won't get lost in the weeds quantifying in this thread , but by any measure or yardstick , the difference is significant .
* For Myself * , I would use the .38 +P HP of my choosing before .357 FMJ .
*************************
I don't buy into the idea of " eh , overpenetration doesn't matter , because you're going to miss anyway " . Hitting is your goal and intention , and it is important to have at least one safe backstop ( the felon) to open fire at all in crowded environments .
