FMJBT bullets seated backwards?

[David Sinko]

The other day I saw a 7.62x39 cartridge with an FMJ boat tail bullet seated backwards. It seems like an interesting idea. Accuracy was reported to be unchanged. My guess is that the bullet would tumble or maybe even expand on impact, which would be an advantage in this cartridge. Has anybody ever tried this with any cartridge?

Dave Sinko

 

[Loco Weed]

I've heard that MANY years ago shooters would seat a bullet backwards over a light charge and use it for taking small game with their high power hunting rifles.

 

[jimonfly]

WWI

I saw something on TV a few weeks ago about Germans in WWI doing this in their sniper rifles. Apparently when it hit the steel plate that the British observers were looking through, it would send a large chunk off the backside and hit them. Kinda like when someone shoots a BB into a display window.

 

[Jellybean]

The reason to do it depends on the bullet used and what you want to do with it.
It would make a spitzer type bullet more lethal at close range. It could turn an expanding bullet into a penetrating bullet if it has a solid base and it would make the bullet more stable at slower velocities.

He may have been trying to turn his bullets into soft points if they had exposed bases. The success of these would depend on the thickness of the jacket at the base, the velocities he was getting and what he was intending to shoot with them.

 

[n4zov]

Since it was a 7.62x39 I would guess somebody was trying to avoid buying soft point ammo for hunting. I remember when folks did all kinds of weird stuff to FMJ military ammo trying to turning it into something suitable for hunting. A very bad idea in my opinion.

Also, if the bullet is reversed it would alter the case capacity - possibly reducing it - and that can result in a significant chase in pressure. Again, a very bad idea.

 

[OKFC05]

My guess is that the bullet would tumble

Actually a bullet is more likely to tumble when fired point forward.
Point first is what is called Beta stable or conditionally stable maintained by the spin.
All spire point bullets fired up in the air eventually turn to alpha stable with the heavy end forward, like sand in the toe of a sock.
It is well documented that nearly spent rifle bullets are found going backwards when they strike.

The obvious disadvantage of firiing a spire point base first is that the ballistic coefficient sucks and the bullet slows quickly.

As far as expansion, it is better to use a commercial soft point bullet for hunting.

 

[David Sinko]

So, it seems that there is a consensus that this is at least safe to do if charges are reduced accordingly. Coincidentally I happen to be loading for a friend's AK-47 right this moment and I will have to give this a try. I have a large quantity of 145 gr. FMJ with exposed lead at the base. Although they are .308" they are easily minute of man at 100 yards when flying point first. I would expect more stopping power when loaded backwards. I'm gonna try this and see what happens.

Dave Sinko

 

[Jellybean]

Safe? Absolutely as long as you know what you are doing. You might run into a problem with reliable feeding in an AK, please let me know how it works.

As OKFC05 stated their BC is lousy seated backwards, but many people don't realize that is a plus for short range work.

With all the great commercial bullets on the market there isn't as much need to try and make bullets do things they weren't intended to do, but since you are doing this for experimental reasons, good luck.

 

[grendelbane]

I have done this in .308. Makes for a good short range, relatively quiet load. The bullet will not tumble, it is extremely stable. It will penetrate a long ways, at least in flesh, probably not so far in a hard barrier.

I always tried to load mine sub-sonic, which is not always easy. I don't have a clue as to how they would perform at higher velocities. I suspect relatively poorly.

The WWI stories that I have read say that the pressures jumped so high the bolts of the Mausers had to be beaten open with a stick. So regular charges won't work.

 

[David Sinko]

The only FMJ I have on hand are 145 gr. and they are far too short to feed from the magazine. I'm pretty sure the guy who did this was using a 174 gr. bullet. Maybe the longer bullet will feed better? I'll have to keep trying.

Dave Sinko

 

[Jellybean]

David are you crimping into a cannelure or just making it as long as you can?

 

[revolvergeek]

I seem to remember Elmer Keith writing about doing this with surplus .30-06 ammo at one point. He wasn't impressed with the performance of FMJ ammo on dear, so he pulled them and reseated them and found that it gave dramatic expansion. Here's a discussion of it at the Box o' Truth: The Box O' Truth #32 - Dum-Dum Bullets and the Box O'Truth - Page 4

 

[David Sinko]

I'm trying to keep the rounds as long as possible (the bullets have a crimping groove which I keep exposed when loading them backwards) but they're still way too short. I see there are some heavier .310" bullets for the .303 British and that might be the way to go. But like the Box O' Truth says, loading conventional softpoints is the more practical route to take. I'm just curious to see how this all works in case one day I really do need to do this out of necessity. Kind of like my last experiment where I cut the tips off 80 gr. A-Max bullets to get them to feed through the magazine to see how they shoot out of my 1:9 twist DPMS. There's no real reason for doing it, but it's nice to know if it works in case it's all you got.

Dave Sinko

 

[kraigwy]

During WWI, when tanks frist came on the scene they were light armored. Soldiers learned that to better penitrate the light armor they could pull the bullets on the service ammo, and re-insert it backwards.

The round penitrated better, plus the lead core would shoot out in a liquid form, igniting the fuel and ammo in the tank.

(Weeks, MAN AGAINST TANK)

 

[Rafter-S]

I'm gonna try this and see what happens.

That sounds like a good epitaph.

ep·i·taph n a commemorative inscription on a tomb or mortuary monument about the person buried at that site.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

During WWI, when tanks frist came on the scene they were light armored. Soldiers learned that to better penitrate the light armor they could pull the bullets on the service ammo, and re-insert it backwards.

The round penitrated better, plus the lead core would shoot out in a liquid form, igniting the fuel and ammo in the tank.

(Weeks, MAN AGAINST TANK)

That doesn't seems possible to me, how can the flat softer end penetrate hard armour better than the pointy hard end? I'm also not sure why the lead would liquify just from hitting it, I'm not saying this isn't true but it just doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Jellybean]

That doesn't seems possible to me, how can the flat softer end penetrate hard armour better than the pointy hard end? I'm also not sure why the lead would liquify just from hitting it, I'm not saying this isn't true but it just doesn't sound right to me.

Well, if they were just seating the bullet backwards without adjusting the powder charge, they would have been increasing the pressure pretty high, which would make them hit harder.

But, looking at the statement you quoted there may have been more to it. Some military hardball rifle ammo has a concave base, instead of being flat. These might act like miniature shaped charges when they hit metal. Just a guess.

 

[Rule3]

So when you label your re loaded ammo box do you ID them as:

TBJMF Bullets?

What is the reason for doing this?????