for the cannon shooters

[chaparrito]

My tinnitus got louder just reading this thread.

 

[Smoke]

I'm not sure your question was answered directly, but even with perfect re-alignment of the gun there is some dispersion, just like there is with a rifle, so you won't put the next round in the same hole as the last one.

Accuracy is a relative thing. On the one hand the accuracy of even an unguided artillery round, when using modern firing tables, is often more accurate than the surveying on the map, so you'll need to fire some registration rounds to work out the errors.

On the other hand with unguided artillery rounds and ranges over about 10,000 meters you'll be doing really well to land just half the rounds within 100 meters of the target.

That's not a bad thing however as like a machine gun, an artillery piece is an area weapon and having some dispersion is part of the plan. It's much more effective spreading six rounds over a 100 or 200 meter impact area than dropping five rounds in the same crater made by the first round, particularly then the kill radius of the round for troops in the open might be 30u to 50 meters (50m for a 155, an area 100 meters in diameter). The idea is to saturate the entire area with shrapnel, and as such you are engaging an area target not a point target.

The idea behind firing as a battery, is that all the rounds will arrive at the same time, providing less warning as to precisely where they will land, making all the rounds equally effective.

Some modern quick firing self propelled artillery can deliver multiple rounds on different trajectories to the same target, so that a single gun can deliver rounds that will all impact at the same time. That's a handy capability to have, particularly when the gun needs to shoot and scoot to avoid counter fire.

---

As noted above some rounds are fuzed to detonate above ground as it is much more effective for antipersonnel rounds. However rounds can also be fuzed to explode on contact, or with a slight delay to allow them to penetrate before exploding. That's much more effective on buildings, bunkers, roads, runways, etc.

Your response isn't as accurate as you think it is and displays more of a history channel understanding than any actual working knowledge.


I'm not sure your question was answered directly, but even with perfect re-alignment of the gun there is some dispersion, just like there is with a rifle, so you won't put the next round in the same hole

This is essentially correct except that most artillery isn't point detonated so there's not a hole as such to put the next round into.

Accuracy is a relative thing. On the one hand the accuracy of even an unguided artillery round, when using modern firing tables, is often more accurate than the surveying on the map, so you'll need to fire some registration rounds to work out the errors.

On the other hand with unguided artillery rounds and ranges over about 10,000 meters you'll be doing really well to land just half the rounds within 100 meters of the target.

This isn't correct I'm not sure where you got the idea that less than half of the rounds fired over 10K yards land with in 100 yards of the target but that's not even remotely accurate. Artillery units spend a lot of time in the field shooting. That time isn't just training of the gun line. The FDC is also collecting data on how accurately each gun shoots and learning how to correct for errors in accuracy to the point that it's not uncommon to drop all 8 rounds (an entire battery in a 3 by 8 configuration) into a 100 meter square box. That's well within the kill radius of a 155mm round

BUT

The majority of Artillery rounds fired are NOT HE rounds. What's mostly fired is Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM) which is essentially a shell casing full of tennis ball sized "bomblets" (the Army's word not mine) that are designed to be fired as a base ejecting round that scatters the "bomblets" over a wide area so there really isn't a lot of call for a PD fuze unless you are actually firing at a structure. So it's more like firing a shot gun than a rifle anyway.


That's not a bad thing however as like a machine gun, an artillery piece is an area weapon and having some dispersion is part of the plan. It's much more effective spreading six rounds over a 100 or 200 meter impact area than dropping five rounds in the same crater made by the first round, particularly then the kill radius of the round for troops in the open might be 30u to 50 meters (50m for a 155, an area 100 meters in diameter). The idea is to saturate the entire area with shrapnel, and as such you are engaging an area target not a point target.

Accurate but outdated even in my day. See my post above HE just really isn't the round of choice unless you're actually trying to take out fortifications

Fire control computers on field artillery are a fairly recent advance that is designed to give a point fire capability when required. However, if true precision is needed there are now GPS guided rounds that are accurate enough to land inside their own kill radius. The downside is that they are expensive, so they won't be used unless that high degree of accuracy is really needed and a less expensive barrage of unguided shells won't get the job done.

Semi correct I'm trying to come up with an application for precision guided artillery (such as the Copperhead) that wouldn't be more suited to a smart bomb.

The idea behind firing as a battery, is that all the rounds will arrive at the same time, providing less warning as to precisely where they will land, making all the rounds equally effective.

Yes.

Some modern quick firing self propelled artillery can deliver multiple rounds on different trajectories to the same target, so that a single gun can deliver rounds that will all impact at the same time. That's a handy capability to have, particularly when the gun needs to shoot and scoot to avoid counter fire.

No, just No. No single gun can fire multiple rounds and have them impact at the same time. Unless you can stop time I doesn't happen. The closest you can get is firing an Illumination mission and then firing HE under it.

As Noted above some rounds are fuzed to detonate above ground as it is much more effective for antipersonnel rounds. However rounds can also be fuzed to explode on contact, or with a slight delay to allow them to penetrate before exploding. That's much more effective on buildings, bunkers, roads, runways, etc.

This is true if you assume that all artillery fire is limited to HE rounds but since artillery isn't limited to HE it doesn't work. Again, the majority of Artillery fire isn't HE.

 

[Steve912]

The majority of Artillery rounds fired are NOT HE rounds. What's mostly fired is Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM)

Interesting...been out a while and did not know that!

DPICM sounds great for troops in the open. Is it any good
against light/moderate overhead cover?

 

[the ringo kid]

when you look at a video of cannons being shot during WW2 or Vietnam everybody is really busy loading and shooting and it doesn't appear that anybody is making downrange adjustments. is there a built in deflection for the shell after it is fired or are they just making the hole deeper where the shell lands?

I dont know anything but heard they do an intentional over and under then are usually right on target.

 

[dave holl]

When it comes to artillery trajectories, the parabola is your friend.

Let's hear it for y = ax^2 + bx + c. (a does not = 0)

 

[the ringo kid]

I want one

Here ya go:

Complete with 8 kill markings.

 

[Harkrader]

I've always long wondered how the NVA "walked" mortar over us. Happened to me a couple times.

I was close to a cannon only once. It was a Naval 8" gun at Cam Ranh Bay. It was on a platform and several of us USAF types wanted to "see the big gun fire." Heh.

Nothing happened for what seemed like a long time and people were just sort of milling around. We waited and suddenly noticed that *we* were the only ones still milling around and were trying to decide if we should, oh, you know, move further away.

Then BOOM! The ground shook and dirt flew up every where. It felt as though I bounced up off the ground as well. I was deaf for hours.

Between incoming and outgoing arty, exposure to screaming jet engines, and firing what seemed like a bazillion rounds of 5.56, not to mention speed-of-sound pressure changes during flight, my ears have been ringing ever since with notable loss of hearing.

Wouldn't have missed a second of it.

Another thing I always wondered about was how the New Jersey could hit targets 25 miles inland. I know there were combat control teams to adjust fire, but hits from a moving, rocking ship flat-out amazed me. I really wished I could have heard those rounds passing overhead. I was told it was thrilling.

 

[Smoke]

Interesting...been out a while and did not know that!

DPICM sounds great for troops in the open. Is it any good
against light/moderate overhead cover?

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ftoeRyZcNKA[/ame]


DPICM rounds are packed with a combination of armor defeating and anti personnel munitions. The anti armor munition will defeat the armor on the top of a tank

 

[Smoke]

I dont know anything but heard they do an intentional over and under then are usually right on target.

When I was an ROTC instructor the cadets told us they were taught to bracket the target before adjusting directly onto the target and that they got points taken off their grade if they didn't.

That was training, in the real World if all the stars and planets aligned and your first round was a direct hit you'd call for FFE and roll.

 

[Smoke]

Copperhead the hammer of the gods

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j4sMeo8wdzE[/ame]

PS: Dig those 90s glasses man

 

[Cyrano]

Wow!! Artillery sure has changed a lot since I studied it in ROTC in 1955.

 

[Smoke]

I really wished I could have heard those rounds passing overhead. I was told it was thrilling.

It doesn't sound like they show you in the movies. It's more like a buzz.

 

[Smoke]

Just some general knowledge:

Every unit I was assigned to operated with 2 artillery platoons and a headquarters platoon.

1st Platoon was designated "Heavy" and had a "Special (NBC) Weapons" section attached.

2nd Platoon was designated "Light" and was straight tube artillery

FDC was split into 2 sections with 1 section assigned to each platoon.

Each platoon operated independently and often we didn't even see each other during the entire FTX.

The basic idea is that one platoon is emplaced and firing while the other is moving although no one that America is currently fight has counter-battery capability.

Normally a platoon is emplaced along a quarter mile (ish) platoon front but that can Chang to a kilometer between guns in a nuclear environment.

When emplaced 1 gun in the platoon (usually gun 3) is designated the "Base Piece". Guns 1 & 2 are to the Left of gun 3 and gun 4 is to the Right.

So gun 3 is zero and FDC figures the the correction that has to be applied to guns 1,2 & 4 so that a round fired from their tube will land on the same axis as that from gun 3.

I'm really simplifying here but the correction for gun 3 is "0" gun 4 is "-3", gun 1 is "+6" and gun 2 is "+3"

So a fire mission comes from FDC, during the adjustment process ONLY gun 3 fires but the other three are aimed along the same axis.

The deflection is always a 4 digit number with 3200 designate as "zero". So if the guns are in a straight line with a 180 degree arc of fire 3200 is the same as 90 degrees.

So the mission order comes from FDC

Platoon adjust (everyone will be aiming)

Number 3, 1 round (only gun 3 will actually load and fire)

Deflection: 3200

Gun 3 will aim at 3200

Gun 4 will add a -3 correction and aim at 3197

Gun 2 will add a +3 correction and aim at 3203

And Gun will add +6 and aim at 3206

So a round fired from each tube will converge on the 3200 axis.

When the round from gun 3 are verified as on target everyone loads and fires until they're told to cease fire

Clear as mud?

 

[Drm50]

Those 16" shells sounded like a freight train coming over. Our
Capt. told us every one that came over was the same thing as
the price of a new Cadllac.

 

[vonn]

Today's artillery is very impressive but every war zone has its own tactics for the use of artillery and what I remember from RVN is 105mm M102 howitzers that were choppered around the AO in direct support of troops and fired in all directions(6400 mils). Most of the larger pieces were not really moved very often because the terrain limited movement of such heavy equipment. I do remember seeing some 155 and 8 inch guns but I think they mostly defended big installations from Tet type attacks.

 

[Smoke]

what I remember from RVN is 105mm M102 howitzers that were choppered around the AO in direct support of troops and fired in all directions(6400 mils).

That's what happening in Afghanistan now and in reality you'd be firing where ever needed in an actual war but in training you're only shooting into the designated impact area and that's (obviously) a fixed location that's always to your front.

 

[the ringo kid]

When I was an ROTC instructor the cadets told us they were taught to bracket the target before adjusting directly onto the target and that they got points taken off their grade if they didn't.

That was training, in the real World if all the stars and planets aligned and your first round was a direct hit you'd call for FFE and roll.

There are two excellent movies I can think of--that has in it-scenes of what you just said. 1) Escape From Fort Bravo--where the Apaches use lances to mark off the general area where the trapped troopers and civilians are-then they fire arrows to get exact location-then they start their "barrage." The other is: Target Zero--war movie about the Korean War. Survivors from Easy Company make it back to the -then overran company positions-Chinese soon attack and are repelled by artillery fire from a battleship-using actual footage.

 

[Steve912]

DPICM rounds are packed with a combination of armor defeating and anti personnel munitions. The anti armor munition will defeat the armor on the top of a tank

How are they for duds?

 

[Drm50]

I was on a FB overnight that had 8" Sps. I think it was either
Blackhawk or Schuler, anyway the crew would load the gun with
excess charges instead of a projectile, for the night. They called
this their Crispy Critter load. If the Dinks tried to come through
the wire, they would fire piont blank. I didn't get to see it done,
but was suppose to be very effective.

 

[Steve912]

the crew would load the gun with
excess charges instead of a projectile, for the night. They called
this their Crispy Critter load.

And the beehive rounds, too...