Found a model 1 today

[glowe]

. . . My thoughts on the subject, yours may vary........

I would agree with you Jim. I do, however, offer quite a bit of credit to Supica/Nahas valuations. First of all, the book states a very clear basis for condition and classifications, one that I rely on to value my collection. Second, Jim has a very long association with selling S&Ws when he owned the Old Town Station enterprise. Third, all members here had the chance to edit the values of the SCSW4 before publication, offering the most credible source for S&Ws out there. Last, I have compared countless entries, auctions, and online S&Ws and almost without fail, SCSW4 is and remains just right on average values. A collector or buyer that does not believe anything published by anyone as credible or accurate ends up being the one that pays way too much for way too many guns.

A case in point pertain to four Model 1 1/2 Tip-Ups I recently sold on Gunbroker. Purchased 25+/= years ago and all were impulse purchased. Paid the asking price just to own them. Well, they ended up residing in the back corner of my safe for many years until I decided to dispose of them. They were typical well used specimens and all had the almost standard non-lockup issues that I never got around to fix. Final prices realized were barely above what I paid for them 25 years ago. Buying without relying on any resources other than one's gut feeling and wits often end up returning zilch when sold - or less.

As James stated, you can find lots of examples of guns selling high when stated value is low, but one has to be conscientious about averaging sales and comparing to known sources. The only comment I would add to what James stated above is that the speed of when someone finds and buys a certain example of a particular model or configuration often dictates the price paid, but not the value. Value is long term average and not spur of the moment purchase. I have a recurring post on "What Was This Buyer Thinking" from time to time on the Forum. The numbers can be astronomical, but don't change the value of the item one dime.

I often work on the other end of the spectrum, taking my time listing, researching, and valuing guns that I want. I then start looking for the best price I can find, so many of my purchases fall well below stated valuation. It might take me a year or more to find what I am looking for, but I can be sure I bought it at a price that I will have no problem turning a profit if and when I sell.

 

[BMur]

Hey Patbar?
I noticed you are from France? If you pick up a book by the Smith & Wesson historian Roy Jinks? It's called the history of Smith & Wesson. On page 56 he lists that of the 650 MONGRELS that were manufactured in the 1 1/2 32rf caliber, 400 of them went to France. Did you buy yours in France? $450 is a great price. Let me know if you see another one over there OK? I'll pay a finders fee. According to Roy Jinks your serial number on your MONGREL should be in the 26,300 range. Is it??

 

[Patbar]

Hey BMur,
I'm afraid I won't be able to satisfy your demand. Although I search the web every day to look for a gun to add to my collection of antique american handguns, I have never seen another Mongrel 1 1/2 (I know that 400 of them were shipped to France).
The guy from whom I bought mine didn't know what he was selling and simply called it a "S&W revolver". Its serial number is 28245.

 

[crossv]

Engraved transition

Anyone know of another engraved transition? Supposedly there were 4 of the 650 factory engraved but I am yet to see one other than this.

 

[BMur]

Hey Patbar,
Thanks for getting back to me. I know they are very rare. Just fishing. Like my old collecting buddy use to say to me. " Murph", " There's always another deal"! He was so right!

 

[Patbar]

Anyone know of another engraved transition? Supposedly there were 4 of the 650 factory engraved but I am yet to see one other than this.

Waaooh !!! That's really a beauty !!!! Is it yours ?

 

[BMur]

I think PatBar is drooling on his computer screen.

 

[Patbar]

I think PatBar is drooling on his computer screen.

Not on the screen, BMur, but now my fingers are dripping while I type on my keyboard !

 

[BMur]

LOL,
I don't blame you. Those are very nice Engraved Mongrels. I think you can find them on a web search. They sold at auction a few years ago for a lot of $$$.

 

[Patbar]

Crossv, thanks for you PM. I wanted to answer it, but I couldn't because your reception box is full.

 

[Patbar]

LOL,
I don't blame you. Those are very nice Engraved Mongrels. I think you can find them on a web search. They sold at auction a few years ago for a lot of $$$.

I guess so. In 2012, a Mongrel just like mine, not engraved and no finish left, was auctioned for $3,012. So I can imagine how high I engraved one could fetch, especially knowing, as Crossv wrote, that only 4 of the 650 Mongrels were engraved !

 

[BMur]

Hey Patbar,
Yeah, I think that enraved Mongrel sold at auction at Rock Island a few years back. I'll try to look it up but that is the best place to list the really rare stuff. Let the " Heavy Hitters" fight over it!

 

[crossv]

"Yeah, I think that engraved Mongrel sold at auction at Rock Island a few years back. I'll try to look it up but that is the best place to list the really rare stuff."

Please do post if you find one in an auction because the one I posted above has been in my family for at least 40 years and that was my question - whether there is another known example.

 

[BMur]

Hey Crossy,
My apologies shipmate. I just finished a search of Rock Island past auctions and could not find that beautifully engraved Mongrel. I thought I had seen it on that sight but I was mistaken. Came back to this site and saw your post.

 

[BMur]

I just finished a pretty good web search using multiple engines and located 3 others. They all fell in the 28,000 serial number range and all sold for some impressive $$. First one sold for $1800. None engraved. One sold in France just last month! Patbar you missed it!!!! Maybe you can translate what the inscription on the barrel says for us??

 

[mmaher94087]

That is the name of the destination (seller or importer) or owner of this revolver. In some cases that name is associated with the shooting parlor that rented the revolver for shooting sports. More beer here!

 

[Patbar]

I just finished a pretty good web search using multiple engines and located 3 others. They all fell in the 28,000 serial number range and all sold for some impressive $$. First one sold for $1800. None engraved. One sold in France just last month! Patbar you missed it!!!! Maybe you can translate what the inscription on the barrel says for us??

The translation of this inscription is "?. Marquis patented in Paris", Marquis being the name of the dealer.

I have a model 1 1/2 second issue which bears the name of Claudin, another famous S&W dealer in Paris.

Marquis and Claudin were not only dealers but also gunsmithes who had obtained patents for their inventions. That is why the word "breveté" (or its abreviation "Bté") which means "patented" was marked after their name.

 

[BMur]

Wow,
Very interesting and helpful translation Patbar. I wonder if that firm was one of the major recipients of the 400 Mongrels shipped to France? I've seen many bulldogs from the 1870's and 1880's that were dealer stamped in London. Seems to have been quite common in Europe. However, dealer stamped revolvers in the USA are quite rare.
We should reach out to Roy Jinks on this Mongrel issue and see if the historical department has found any new information?
Say, Patbar can you please take a close look at your Mongrel and see if it has matching assembly numbers?
I'm trying to see if they were assembled by Smith & Wesson or perhaps contracted to other firms.
I honestly still have a problem with that theory because of the serial number range? They are serial numbered at the end of the early 1 1/2.
Would Smith & Wesson have numbered the frames then sold the unassembeled parts to other firms for assembly? Otherwise why would that firm in France apply their Patent to the barrel?

 

[Patbar]

BMur, I took a close look at my Mongrel and except the serial number on the butt and on the right grip, there is only a "U" and "O" at the rear end of the barrel.

Concerning the patent on the barrel, all I can say is that I don't know anything about Marquis, but I know that Claudin had a gun factory and obtained several patents for his hunting rifles. I searched on the web about him but didn't find anything else.

I have too considered the possibility that S&W parts could have been sent to them for assembly, but who could give us any facts about that ?

 

[BMur]

Hi Patbar,
That's exactly what I was hoping that you would say. This supports the position that the frames were numbered consecutively by the Smith & Wesson factory at the very end of production of the earlier model and beginning with the new model frames, however they were not assembled? ( possibly?) . The new type frames were sold combined with leftover parts of the earlier model with older ( barrels and cylinders) to be assembled by the buyer?
Roy Jinks mentions that in his book. That The company did not want to waste parts after being advised by a vendor that was making the barrels and cylinders for them that they had some leftover. Smith & Wesson at that time was already transitioning to the new model. That's why they were called Mongrels. Because they were a mixed breed from leftover parts that the company didn't know existed until they had already started making the new model. That makes perfect sense to me.

I am pursuing a factory letter for my 22 cal Mongrel. The serial number puts it just beyond the end of the 1st Model 2nd issue 22cal so this should be a .22 Mongrel as well. It also has very unusual features that make no sense except that it was part of the last batch of barrels/ cylinders of the 1st Model 2nd issue that was put on a very early 3rd issue frame. That would make it a .22 Mongrel. You can cross reference the time frame is exactly the same time in history that the 32 cal 1 1/2 Mongrel showed up. Approximately 1868. The vendor that made barrels and cylinders for Smith and Wesson must have had leftover 22 parts as well.
Hopefully Roy Jinks will clear this up with factory historical documentation! I think he is going to have some very interesting information in this subject!
I strongly recommend that you get a factory letter for your Mongrel as well. It would only document its legitimacy from a historical standpoint and bolster its value!