This question most likely will not get many responses as, for most expert shooters, frangibles are not very good for EDC/SD. However, here goes anyway: Have you had any experience with either the Glaser bullet type ammo or the G2 RIP. The G2 RIP is marketed by Firequest but i don't know who else might sell the Glaser. Both of these bullets are the "type 2" frangible. The Glaser, i believe, uses # 12 shot pellets and the G2 RIP uses sharp sections that detach. At present i am learning about frangibles so any info will be most appreciated. Also, what do you think of using either for EDC/SD - specifically to minimize over-penetration? Thanks and have a great and safe day!
Frangible Ammo
- Thread starter JoeP1940
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2006
- Messages
- 19,632
- Reaction score
- 31,167
I would certainly not trust frangible ammo for self defense purposes. I would also never consider using #12 shot - it just severely lacks penetration. The G2 RIP is something relatively new and I have no experience with it - therefore I would not use it as I have no idea how it performs.
You have not stated what caliber and gun & barrel length you are talking about either - that would help a little. If you are talking about 9mm or 38 special, I would stick to the tried, true and traditional rounds such as Federal HST, Speer GDHP, etc. Wile those two have good penetration their hollow point cavity and expansion will usually stop them from over penetration. They are both street proven rounds.
All that said, sometimes it also depends on where the person gets shot, what clothing he is wearing, how much he weighs, etc. Those are factors that are not known now but you would be best served if you go with something adequate for larger people wearing heavy clothing unless you live in Florida or similar.
You have not stated what caliber and gun & barrel length you are talking about either - that would help a little. If you are talking about 9mm or 38 special, I would stick to the tried, true and traditional rounds such as Federal HST, Speer GDHP, etc. Wile those two have good penetration their hollow point cavity and expansion will usually stop them from over penetration. They are both street proven rounds.
All that said, sometimes it also depends on where the person gets shot, what clothing he is wearing, how much he weighs, etc. Those are factors that are not known now but you would be best served if you go with something adequate for larger people wearing heavy clothing unless you live in Florida or similar.
Extensive experience with Glaser. Zero with G2. My agency (Cal DOC) used to use them in the H&K carbines on the Ad Seg yards to cut down on ricochet. Unfortunately I couldn't tell you anything about results in actual shootings. I do know the department got away from both the guns and the ammo in only a couple of years. Damn expensive fix for a non-problem. I hear the department made a bundle when they sold the H&K carbines because it was after the CA "assault weapons" ban on new sales.
No experience with frangible ammo. I'm sure if you watch some you tube ballistic gel video's, you'll get a good idea on how they perform.
I think your biggest issue will be lack of penetration. That's why most people will use a solid, non-hollowpoint projectile in calibers like .22, .32, & sometimes .380. And as stated, any top end hollowpoint should prevent over-penetration.
Based on the information I've seen, over-penetration is rarely a thing. If you're just looking for what works for self-defense, check out lucky gunners ballistic tests. They can explain it much better than I can.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
I think your biggest issue will be lack of penetration. That's why most people will use a solid, non-hollowpoint projectile in calibers like .22, .32, & sometimes .380. And as stated, any top end hollowpoint should prevent over-penetration.
Based on the information I've seen, over-penetration is rarely a thing. If you're just looking for what works for self-defense, check out lucky gunners ballistic tests. They can explain it much better than I can.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
No g2
I have very little experience with the Glaser safety slugs. I have only run a couple boxes of it through my 10mm. It shoots really well, but I would never use it for self defense. If it breaks apart as it's meant to, the penetration would be minimal. If it doesn't, itll just act like an fmj and overpenetrate, defeating the purpose. The RIP rounds are a defense attorneys worst nightmare. The name and intended function are hard to justify in court. In the summer they may prove effective, but I cant imagine one would get the desired effect in winter time going through multiple layers of clothing. On top of that, you may have trouble feeding them due to the design and the low power. For example: the 10mm rip round is 115gr rated at 1220fps. That is very light for caliber and not moving very fast for how light it is, so It may not even cycle in your chosen firearm. The glasers that i have shot were similarly light for caliber, but moving significantly faster(1500fps iirc). Either way it seems you're better off with a hollow point or a monolithic round like the Underwood extreme defender for self defense.
Both of the listed rounds are great for a fun day at the outdoor range (price aside) just seeing what they do, but not much else.
I have very little experience with the Glaser safety slugs. I have only run a couple boxes of it through my 10mm. It shoots really well, but I would never use it for self defense. If it breaks apart as it's meant to, the penetration would be minimal. If it doesn't, itll just act like an fmj and overpenetrate, defeating the purpose. The RIP rounds are a defense attorneys worst nightmare. The name and intended function are hard to justify in court. In the summer they may prove effective, but I cant imagine one would get the desired effect in winter time going through multiple layers of clothing. On top of that, you may have trouble feeding them due to the design and the low power. For example: the 10mm rip round is 115gr rated at 1220fps. That is very light for caliber and not moving very fast for how light it is, so It may not even cycle in your chosen firearm. The glasers that i have shot were similarly light for caliber, but moving significantly faster(1500fps iirc). Either way it seems you're better off with a hollow point or a monolithic round like the Underwood extreme defender for self defense.
Both of the listed rounds are great for a fun day at the outdoor range (price aside) just seeing what they do, but not much else.
I was an apartment dweller for all of my professional career. I always had people on two-three sides of me separated by sheet rock.
I kept Glasers loaded in my CA bulldog and a custom S&W 28 converted to 45 colt. These two revolvers were designated “castle defenders” and were not carried in public.
As pointed out in a previous post, these types of projectiles effectiveness would depend on several variables.
Glasers came in two versions. The “blue” that contained #12 shot & the “silver” that contained #6 shot. The specimens in my photo are the silver version.
The 44 spl is a 135gr projectile rated at 1350 out of a 6” bl.
The 45’s are a 145 gr @ 1350 out of a 6” bl.
I have had these for several decades & they are a curio now, rather than a part of my defensive line up.
I have no idea what they clocked out of my revolvers, but the 44spl had a lot of “whoop tee dee” out of that 19oz Charter.
I kept Glasers loaded in my CA bulldog and a custom S&W 28 converted to 45 colt. These two revolvers were designated “castle defenders” and were not carried in public.
As pointed out in a previous post, these types of projectiles effectiveness would depend on several variables.
Glasers came in two versions. The “blue” that contained #12 shot & the “silver” that contained #6 shot. The specimens in my photo are the silver version.
The 44 spl is a 135gr projectile rated at 1350 out of a 6” bl.
The 45’s are a 145 gr @ 1350 out of a 6” bl.
I have had these for several decades & they are a curio now, rather than a part of my defensive line up.
I have no idea what they clocked out of my revolvers, but the 44spl had a lot of “whoop tee dee” out of that 19oz Charter.
Attachments
Last edited:
Great information - - Thank you!
Thank you Sir for your response and the great information. I think i just needed a little reinforcement that the frangible ammo is just prime time ready for EDC/SD. As to the handgun, it will be the M&P 10mm 4.6" barrel. I was considering the 4" but then heard that there were some minor issues with that handgun. So, it will be the 4.6". This will be my first 10mm - my other are 9s. Again, thanks for responding. Have a great and safe day, Sir.
DWalt
Member
The military uses lots of 5.56 and 9mm frangible ammunition for training. I am intimately familiar with that as I was responsible for its evaluation and development for over five years. However, there was some limited combat trial use of 5.56 frangible ammunition by a special forces unit I will not name. It was found to be extremely effective for knocking over the BGs (who were not wearing body armor). This was one of my projects: Federal Ammunition Awarded U.S. Army Contract for 5.56 AA40 frangible ammunition - Frag Out! Magazine. Regarding the military frangible 9mm ammunition, its bullet penetration performance on soft targets is pretty much comparable to fmj bullets. But the bullets (sintered copper) are lighter and MV is somewhat greater. Definitely unlike shooting blanks, even though they are not intended for use against living targets, only inanimate ones.
Last edited:
STORMINORMAN
Member
DWalt: I purchased 500 of the Sinterfire 55gr bullet a couple years ago.
The Sinterfire load data shows 22gr of IMR 4895 as the START load and a compressed load of 24.6gr (3,106fps @ 50,700psi) as the MAX: would I be better served loading closer to the START vs. the MAX for normal shooting at non-steel range targets?
Thanks in advance for your kind consideration!
Cheers!
P.S. From what I can tell the 5.56 factory 55gr ammo is rated at 3,350fps!
The Sinterfire load data shows 22gr of IMR 4895 as the START load and a compressed load of 24.6gr (3,106fps @ 50,700psi) as the MAX: would I be better served loading closer to the START vs. the MAX for normal shooting at non-steel range targets?
Thanks in advance for your kind consideration!
Cheers!
P.S. From what I can tell the 5.56 factory 55gr ammo is rated at 3,350fps!
Last edited:
DWalt
Member
I experimented with every type of frangible 5.56 bullet available at the time (late 90s-early 00s). There weren't very many of them then. Sinterfire, I think, was one of them. In any event, none of them met the ballistics standards needed, one of which was grouping performance, essentially that it matched the performance of the M855 round out to 100 meters. There were numerous other requirements in addition. Early on it was apparent none of the bullets could perform satisfactorily. There was a Canadian company named Cesaroni that came up with the first bullet that had potential. It was a nearly full jacketed spitzer that had a core of graded copper powder in a plastic matrix. The main issue was finding the best polymer, which turned out to be Surlyn, the same plastic as used for golf ball covers. It looks much like a spitzer hunting bullet. Essentially, that is the same bullet used in today's AA40 round as made by Federal. Cesaroni is now the largest manufacturer in the world of all types and calibers of frangible bullets, and are used by nearly all ammo manufacturers. Look at Cesaroni's website, it is pretty interesting. They are also big in commercial rocketry. Cesaroni Technology Incorporated
As one of the cartridge's requirements, primers had to be lead free, and that created another problem, namely bore fiction. Most do not recognize that the lead in the primer acts as a bore lubricant. Therefore, the propellant used by the M855 was modified by adding bismuth to act as a lubricant. I had nothing to do with that, as that was Winchester's job. I know there were several different tweakings of the propellant compounding to get the desired performance. Nearly all of the type classification work once the best round had been blessed was done by the Navy's small arms group at NSWC-Crane as they had much better facilities than I did. Getting to the point of all this lengthy discussion, I can't tell you anything about load recipes and performance using Sinterfire bullets and canister propellants because I have no experimental data. If Sinterfire does supply data, about all I can say is work up your loads in the usual way, starting with the minimum 4895 loads they suggest.
I went through the same steps in the development of the 9mm training round, which did end up using the Sinterfire bullet. But at least at that time, the requirements were not as stringent as for the AA40. Winchester ended getting the military contract for their production. My third frangible project was frangible 00B buckshot for training use. A long story there.
As one of the cartridge's requirements, primers had to be lead free, and that created another problem, namely bore fiction. Most do not recognize that the lead in the primer acts as a bore lubricant. Therefore, the propellant used by the M855 was modified by adding bismuth to act as a lubricant. I had nothing to do with that, as that was Winchester's job. I know there were several different tweakings of the propellant compounding to get the desired performance. Nearly all of the type classification work once the best round had been blessed was done by the Navy's small arms group at NSWC-Crane as they had much better facilities than I did. Getting to the point of all this lengthy discussion, I can't tell you anything about load recipes and performance using Sinterfire bullets and canister propellants because I have no experimental data. If Sinterfire does supply data, about all I can say is work up your loads in the usual way, starting with the minimum 4895 loads they suggest.
I went through the same steps in the development of the 9mm training round, which did end up using the Sinterfire bullet. But at least at that time, the requirements were not as stringent as for the AA40. Winchester ended getting the military contract for their production. My third frangible project was frangible 00B buckshot for training use. A long story there.
Last edited:
Biggfoot44
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,060
- Reaction score
- 1,596
Firstly, for clarity , JoeP1940 is speaking of " Pre Fragmented defensive ammo . Frangible Ammunition in the Military rifle context is something different .
RIP - No
Glaser - Yes , and moreover the Mag Safe .
As a couple have posted above , Pre Fragmented is a very specialized ammo , for specific actual or perceived requirements.
Absolutely, positively, not penetrate interior walls .
Absolutely, positively, not penetrate completely thru the intended bad guy .
With those two controlling parameters , even if significant compromises in other factors.
* Disclaimer- I don't obsess over deep penetration, but there still is a big difference between sort of enough , and way too little *
Yes ! From personal experience, a .38 +P+ will Not penetrate an interior sheet rock wall .( But will leave your ears ringing for hours )
The difference in POI even at less than 7 yards ranges from significant to unbelievably huge . When we say Close Range , we mean it ! 3 inch low at 5 yards , you could live with . 10 inches low , not so much .
My experience was mainly with Revolvers . Because Revolver and Feeding Issues don't fit in the same sentence. But these very light bullet , very high velocity loads has very different recoil impulse , and slide velocities. They might well cycle reliably in your semiauto, but you can't assume that , you need to function test . I just did an internet price check , and prices have surprising come down relative inflation. But still $17/ 10rd , plus shipping is nothing to sneeze at . But not impossible, if you budget $100 for minimal function test and sighting , and one mag to carry .
Development back story ( simplified):
In the beginning was Jack Cannon & Glaser . Used #12 shot . Penetrates 2- 4 inches for the various pellets .
Zoe Zambone tested some Glaser . Liked the concept , but thought the penetration was waaay too shallow . Invented a Better Mouse Trap . Initially used #6 shot , and in subsequent R&D ended up with different size shot in different calibers and loads, Ranging from #6 to #2 .
The subsequent corporate owners of Glasser saw Mag Safe eating away their market share , and had to do something to compete .
The original Glaser line was renamed Gkaser Blue , and the new Glaser Silver with #6 .
Even For Me , +/- 3 inches of penetration is waaay too little .
Current 10mm Mag Safe with 8- 13 inches ? Opinions will rightly vary. If you had actual need to not penetrate an interior wall at close range , it's something to consider .
BUT as I'm interpreting the OP's search for general purpose carry/ defense ammo , I'd recommend against any Pre Fragmented ammo .
If you were to have a predisposition for penetration on the lower end of the general use spectrum , look to the various 150/ 155gr JHP , with 4 layer gel penetration in the 12-14 inch range .
RIP - No
Glaser - Yes , and moreover the Mag Safe .
As a couple have posted above , Pre Fragmented is a very specialized ammo , for specific actual or perceived requirements.
Absolutely, positively, not penetrate interior walls .
Absolutely, positively, not penetrate completely thru the intended bad guy .
With those two controlling parameters , even if significant compromises in other factors.
* Disclaimer- I don't obsess over deep penetration, but there still is a big difference between sort of enough , and way too little *
Yes ! From personal experience, a .38 +P+ will Not penetrate an interior sheet rock wall .( But will leave your ears ringing for hours )
The difference in POI even at less than 7 yards ranges from significant to unbelievably huge . When we say Close Range , we mean it ! 3 inch low at 5 yards , you could live with . 10 inches low , not so much .
My experience was mainly with Revolvers . Because Revolver and Feeding Issues don't fit in the same sentence. But these very light bullet , very high velocity loads has very different recoil impulse , and slide velocities. They might well cycle reliably in your semiauto, but you can't assume that , you need to function test . I just did an internet price check , and prices have surprising come down relative inflation. But still $17/ 10rd , plus shipping is nothing to sneeze at . But not impossible, if you budget $100 for minimal function test and sighting , and one mag to carry .
Development back story ( simplified):
In the beginning was Jack Cannon & Glaser . Used #12 shot . Penetrates 2- 4 inches for the various pellets .
Zoe Zambone tested some Glaser . Liked the concept , but thought the penetration was waaay too shallow . Invented a Better Mouse Trap . Initially used #6 shot , and in subsequent R&D ended up with different size shot in different calibers and loads, Ranging from #6 to #2 .
The subsequent corporate owners of Glasser saw Mag Safe eating away their market share , and had to do something to compete .
The original Glaser line was renamed Gkaser Blue , and the new Glaser Silver with #6 .
Even For Me , +/- 3 inches of penetration is waaay too little .
Current 10mm Mag Safe with 8- 13 inches ? Opinions will rightly vary. If you had actual need to not penetrate an interior wall at close range , it's something to consider .
BUT as I'm interpreting the OP's search for general purpose carry/ defense ammo , I'd recommend against any Pre Fragmented ammo .
If you were to have a predisposition for penetration on the lower end of the general use spectrum , look to the various 150/ 155gr JHP , with 4 layer gel penetration in the 12-14 inch range .
I'm not sure what "RIP" stands for in the marketing plan but you can bet everything you own and will make for the rest of your life that an opposing attorney will jump all over that in either civil or criminal court.
I didn't do the extensive testing the DWalt & Biggfoot44 did, but I did carry & use the Glaser blue tip rounds extensively for vermin elimination where ricochet could be prohibitively expensive.
The stuff has dismal tactical penetration. If it hits any intermediate barrier (arm, tooth, etc) enroute to the target, it breaks up and doesn't reach vital areas. I mention "tooth" because I attempted a through the open mouth shot on a charging, possibly rabid, large dog. The dog went down when the spray of fine shot hit the back of the throat, but he wasn't out of the fight. After that experience, I gave up on pre-fragmented ammunition for any use.
A lady friend wasn't thorough when she unloaded her revolver prior to a dry fire session. She lived in a duplex and the Glaser slug remained intact while passing through the dividing wall and lodging in another interior wall in the other unit. The design intent was to reduce ricochet, minimal penetration was kind of a side benefit........sometimes. No, Glaser wasn't developed for Sky Marshalls.
Best stick to plain old HP/JHP ammo in loads that, as noted above, run toward the bottom, or even a touch below, the minimum FBI 12 inch penetration threshold. Most self defense shootings are at about 5 yards and are frontal targets, minimal to no need for chance barrier penetration.
I didn't do the extensive testing the DWalt & Biggfoot44 did, but I did carry & use the Glaser blue tip rounds extensively for vermin elimination where ricochet could be prohibitively expensive.
The stuff has dismal tactical penetration. If it hits any intermediate barrier (arm, tooth, etc) enroute to the target, it breaks up and doesn't reach vital areas. I mention "tooth" because I attempted a through the open mouth shot on a charging, possibly rabid, large dog. The dog went down when the spray of fine shot hit the back of the throat, but he wasn't out of the fight. After that experience, I gave up on pre-fragmented ammunition for any use.
A lady friend wasn't thorough when she unloaded her revolver prior to a dry fire session. She lived in a duplex and the Glaser slug remained intact while passing through the dividing wall and lodging in another interior wall in the other unit. The design intent was to reduce ricochet, minimal penetration was kind of a side benefit........sometimes. No, Glaser wasn't developed for Sky Marshalls.
Best stick to plain old HP/JHP ammo in loads that, as noted above, run toward the bottom, or even a touch below, the minimum FBI 12 inch penetration threshold. Most self defense shootings are at about 5 yards and are frontal targets, minimal to no need for chance barrier penetration.
pantannojack
US Veteran
I would not envy the ER Surgeon's job of cleaning out the little pieces from a wound.
