Ft-lbs of energy

[Mikeinkaty]

If I load a 158 gr coated lead bullet so that it has the same energy on target as a 180 grain bullet, which one will have the best killing potential on a hog?

Both loads I've been looking at have about 600 ft-lbs at 100 yards. Are there other factors to consider?

Mike

 

[Fishinfool]

In theory, the heavier bullet should penetrate deeper. BUT, other factors include bullet design, weight, hardness. A heavier bullet that expands will often penetrate less than a lighter bullet that does not deform. With a handgun, ft-lbs of energy is not a great indicator of killing power. Proper bullet construction, penetration, and placement is. Deer gut shot with high power rifles developing much more energy than a handgun still usually run off. For something solidly built like a hog, using a cast bullet, I would want a heavier bullet cast hard, with a large flat nose, like a WFN design.

Larry

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

It sounds like you are using a 357 Mag. I understand that is what you have and for self defense from wild hogs that is lots better than nothing. However, to go hunting for hogs with something as small as a 357 is pretty close to negligence.

Ivan

 

[Mikeinkaty]

My feeder is set 100 yards from the deck of my RV. I'm 75 yrs old and my 30-06 is a bit much for me now. If I go into the woods most shots there will be less than 50 yards. Plus I got my S&W 686 as backup. I can still put every shot in a 2" circle at 100 yards with my 06. Probably half the hogs I've killed have been running shots.

Oh, I just bought the Henry big boy in 357 mag. I want to load 100 or so rounds just for hogs.

 

[bigwheelzip]

For hunting animals with a tough hide, I saw a good review of Swift A-Frame bullets loaded on .357 by Federal. The bullets are available for reloaders.

Swift Bullets

Federal Premium Ammunition - Handgun

 

[chief38]

Foot pounds of energy is derived from mass (weight of projectile) and the velocity (speed of that projectile). Therefore 600 ft. lbs should be 600 ft. lbs. To get a lighter bullet up to the same foot pounds of energy of a heavier bullet, the speed would have to increase over that of the heavier one.

That said, if hunting Hogs, I'd personally go with a heavier bullet.

 

[BB57]

Larry has it right above.

A 158 gr bullet at a velocity of 1,308 fps produces 600 ft pounds and a momentum of 29 pound feet per second.

A 180 gr bullet at a velocity of 1,226 ft per second also produces 600 ft pounds of energy, but the momentum is greater at 31 pound feet per second.

But 600 ft pounds from one is not the same as 600 ft pounds from the other when it comes to penetration for two reasons:

Momentum

The heavier bullet produces more momentum at a lower velocity but the same kinetic energy level because kinetic energy is the mass times the velocity squared. In contrast, momentum is just mass times velocity and is thus more dependent on bullet weight than velocity.

Momentum is important as all other things being equal (like bullet construction), more momentum = more penetration.

Sectional Density

More weight in a given bullet diameter also equates to higher sectional density. Generally speaking for medium sized game you want a sectional density of at least .215.

With a 158 gr .357" bullet the sectional density is .177.

With a 180 gr .357" bullet the sectional density is .202.

Neither is ideal and is a little short of the desired .215 (or above), but the 180 gr bullet is a lot closer to the mark than the 158 gr bullet, and has the added benefit of greater momentum.

However, a 200 gr bullet in .357 gives an SD of .224 and when launched at 1,100 fps (do-able in a 6" revolver) it will produce the same 31 pound feet per second momentum as the 180 gr bullet. If you punch the velocity up to around 1,200 fps, you'll get 639 ft pounds and 34 pound feet per second of momentum.

The problem with the 200 gr bullet is that it's long enough that it might not stabilize well in slower twist barrels and it needs near maximum velocities to stabilize.

At the end of the day you may want to stay with a hard cast bullet from one of the several molds that produce a variant of the 180 gr Keith .358-429 bullet.

-----

.357 Magnum Rifles and Carbines

Out of a 20" carbine or rifle, you've got other options and some advantages that help offset the lower sectional density.

For example, you can get 1,800 fps from a 158 gr bullet in a 20" rifle or carbine and that will produce 1,136 ft pounds of energy and 40 pound feet per second of momentum. That extra momentum partially offsets the .177 sectional density.

With a 180 gr bullet you can get between 1,450 and 1,550 fps from a 20" barrel, depending on the bullet and at those velocities it will stabilize even in the 1-30" twist of a Rossi Model 92.

At 1,400 fps there is 840 ft pounds of energy and 37 pound feet per second of momentum. At 1,550 fps you'll get 1,023 ft pounds and 41 pound feet per second.

This again makes a hard cast 180 gr .358-429 Kieth type bullet a good choice.

----

As an aside, an SD of .260 or above is preferred on large game like Elk and an SD of .300 or above is preferred on dangerous, thick skinned game.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

A Hardrock Maple bowling pin weighs 3.75 pounds. A good .38 special makes 375 ft lbs of energy. Why doesn't a .38 special making 375 ft lbs knock a 3.75 pound bowling pin 100 feet? It certainly gets all of the "energy" and yet it just topples over. Now momentum is another thing altogether.

 

[OFT II]

A Hardrock Maple bowling pin weighs 3.75 pounds. A good .38 special makes 375 ft lbs of energy. Why doesn't a .38 special making 375 ft lbs knock a 3.75 pound bowling pin 100 feet? It certainly gets all of the "energy" and yet it just topples over. Now momentum is another thing altogether.

And inertia is another thing.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Most coated lead bullets are of the very soft lead type for target use.

They might expand like a pancake on a hard surface and have minimal penetration.
I would put a few through plywood and water or wet newspaper first............

I would select the XTP design for hog hunting, myself.

 

[Forrest r]

Sounds like it's time to do some test loads. Accuracy 1st, then figure out what you have to work with. Different loads might look good on paper until you actually put those loads on a paper target, they are just numbers.

From there I'd get 16"+ of bundled/taped together newspapers and set the bundles in a cooler and fill the cooler with water and let the bundles soak overnight.

Place the test bundles at the yardage you plan on hunting at (100yds?) and test your loads for penetration.
If they go thru the 16" of wet bundled newspaper, you more than enough penetration.
If the bullet is soft and mushrooms and still goes thru the 16" bundle, you might want to wipe off your tap dancing shoes.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

Larry has it right above.

A 158 gr bullet at a velocity of 1,308 fps produces 600 ft pounds and a momentum of 29 pound feet per second.

A 180 gr bullet at a velocity of 1,226 ft per second also produces 600 ft pounds of energy, but the momentum is greater at 31 pound feet per second.

But 600 ft pounds from one is not the same as 600 ft pounds from the other when it comes to penetration for two reasons:

Momentum

The heavier bullet produces more momentum at a lower velocity but the same kinetic energy level because kinetic energy is the mass times the velocity squared. In contrast, momentum is just mass times velocity and is thus more dependent on bullet weight than velocity.

Momentum is important as all other things being equal (like bullet construction), more momentum = more penetration.

Sectional Density

More weight in a given bullet diameter also equates to higher sectional density. Generally speaking for medium sized game you want a sectional density of at least .215.

With a 158 gr .357" bullet the sectional density is .177.

With a 180 gr .357" bullet the sectional density is .202.

Neither is ideal and is a little short of the desired .215 (or above), but the 180 gr bullet is a lot closer to the mark than the 158 gr bullet, and has the added benefit of greater momentum.

However, a 200 gr bullet in .357 gives an SD of .224 and when launched at 1,100 fps (do-able in a 6" revolver) it will produce the same 31 pound feet per second momentum as the 180 gr bullet. If you punch the velocity up to around 1,200 fps, you'll get 639 ft pounds and 34 pound feet per second of momentum.

The problem with the 200 gr bullet is that it's long enough that it might not stabilize well in slower twist barrels and it needs near maximum velocities to stabilize.

At the end of the day you may want to stay with a hard cast bullet from one of the several molds that produce a variant of the 180 gr Keith .358-429 bullet.

-----

.357 Magnum Rifles and Carbines

Out of a 20" carbine or rifle, you've got other options and some advantages that help offset the lower sectional density.

For example, you can get 1,800 fps from a 158 gr bullet in a 20" rifle or carbine and that will produce 1,136 ft pounds of energy and 40 pound feet per second of momentum. That extra momentum partially offsets the .177 sectional density.

With a 180 gr bullet you can get between 1,450 and 1,550 fps from a 20" barrel, depending on the bullet and at those velocities it will stabilize even in the 1-30" twist of a Rossi Model 92.

At 1,400 fps there is 840 ft pounds of energy and 37 pound feet per second of momentum. At 1,550 fps you'll get 1,023 ft pounds and 41 pound feet per second.

This again makes a hard cast 180 gr .358-429 Kieth type bullet a good choice.

----

As an aside, an SD of .260 or above is preferred on large game like Elk and an SD of .300 or above is preferred on dangerous, thick skinned game.

Thank you. You obviously know what you're stalking about.

MBC has a hi-Tek coated bullet at 180 grain and .358 diameter and a BH of 18. And is the K type with a flat nose. I just don't need 500 of the buggers!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you. You obviously know what you're stalking about.

MBC has a hi-Tek coated bullet at 180 grain and .358 diameter and a BH of 18. And is the K type with a flat nose. I just don't need 500 of the buggers!

You don't need to order 500. They offer sample packs of 100 bullets. Look for the name if the bullet and then choose that name from the drop-down box.
Missouri Bullet Company

I tested bullets from 125gr to 180gr in a .357 Magnum levergun and I was surprised at the velocities. The 125gr XTP clocked in at over 2200 fps which would probably blow up or expand too quickly on a pig and not penetrate adequately. I like carrying a .357 Magnum levergun and revolver in the woods. In not carrying my 30-06 much anymore in favor of a 30-30 or the .357 depending on what in doing.

 

[muddocktor]

Thank you. You obviously know what you're stalking about.

MBC has a hi-Tek coated bullet at 180 grain and .358 diameter and a BH of 18. And is the K type with a flat nose. I just don't need 500 of the buggers!

Mike, I've been shooting the other MBC offering in my Rossi (the Striker) and seeing some pretty good results so far. I last shot them loaded with 10.8 grains A#9 and the other day loaded up a box with 11.1 grains with A#9 and also loaded a box with 13.0 grains H110. When this crummy weather blows through I plan to go back to the range with my Rossi and the chrono and see what they shoot at.

At 10.8 grains A #9, I was getting around 1450 ft/sec out of the Rossi and that works out to close to 850 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. At that load, I was seeing no signs at all of it being a max load, with easy extraction from my revolver and normal flattening of the primers and no anomalies in the cases.

I got the data points for the Accurate loads from Western Powder's downloadable data file and they had a few bullets choices in it for A#9 that are close to the MBC bullet.

For the H110 loads, I'm starting with the minimum listed load from the Hodgdon load data, since they worked theirs up with a Nosler 180 Partition. And extrapolating lead loads from jacketed bullet data can be tricky.

 

[radio11]

I just read a very interesting article last night "History of the 357 Magnum" at ballisticstudies.com. If I knew how to post a link--I would. It goes deeply into the OP's question and I agree with the findings. If you can load for and push a 180 grain XTP well over 1000 fps, (no problem in the lever gun), it is great for hogs. The 158 is a "compromise" round of speed and penetration. A hard cast 180 is also very deadly despite the pig's shoulder armor.

The only caveat is the 100 yard range of the shot. Still probably not a problem with the Henry. You could also consider downloading the 30-06, but like you, I would rather have fun with the 357.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Neumann]

Kinetic energy is not the best indicator of killing power for hunting, especially solidly built animals like hogs or bear. Even 600 ft-lbs is not going to stop a charging animal. In fact it will impart very little change in velocity (by conservation of momentum). You need to deliver that energy to a vital spot.

Most people suggest using hard-cast, flat nosed bullets for maximum penetration in these applications, and the largest caliber you can shoot effectively (e.g., .44 Magnum).

.44 Magnum in a carbine delivers about 50% more energy than the same cartridge in a handgun, and is effective to 125 yard or so. This might be a solution if you are recoil-sensitive.

 

[amazingflapjack]

The rifle barrel length brings a whole new dynamic to a 38/357 bullet I have found.

 

[Will Carry]

I have a Henry Big Boy in .357 magnum. At 100 yards it's dead on. At 150 yards it drops about 6 inches, after that your pretty much done. That's using 158 grain flat nosed ammo. I love shooting it and it's a big hit at the range. Everyone who has shot it wants one. I have one gripe and that's the octagonal barrel. It makes the rifle front heavy. A beautiful rifle like the Big Boy should be well balanced.
I don't hunt hogs so I cannot give you anything but opinions on hunting with the .357. I say give it a try and see.

 

[muddocktor]

Kinetic energy is not the best indicator of killing power for hunting, especially solidly built animals like hogs or bear. Even 600 ft-lbs is not going to stop a charging animal. In fact it will impart very little change in velocity (by conservation of momentum). You need to deliver that energy to a vital spot.

Most people suggest using hard-cast, flat nosed bullets for maximum penetration in these applications, and the largest caliber you can shoot effectively (e.g., .44 Magnum).

.44 Magnum in a carbine delivers about 50% more energy than the same cartridge in a handgun, and is effective to 125 yard or so. This might be a solution if you are recoil-sensitive.

As an owner of a 44 Mag lever rifle (Browning B92), I can say without reservation that while it would undoubtedly be a better choice for hog hunting, you get back to the levels of the 30-06 in recoil energy he is trying to get away from. Believe me, these 1892 type rifles in 44 Mag with full bore 240 grain projectiles hurt after only a few shots. I know that he won't be burning a bunch of rounds during the hunt, but the man is 75 years old and is wanting to hunt with something that doesn't maim on the blunt end. The round metal butt plate on these rifles isn't conducive to mitigating recoil, believe me. My B92 isn't bad to shoot with moderate loads, but when you up the power the pain factor becomes significant. But with the 357 Rossi, I can shoot it basically all day long no matter what I'm shooting in it.

 

[fredj338]

It's all about bullet design & shape. A RN solid bullet will pass thru the target, crushing little tissue. A flat point or expanding bullet will crush tissue along the path as it penetrates, more damage, cleaner kill with identical bullet placement. In solid form, either bullet will likely exit on a broadside shot. So either weight, make mine a large flat point.