Lets hear what you guys would do with your new in the box from S&W revolvers to wring the absolute most possible accuracy out of it. Lets also assume you have no limits...like money or the person, capability or place to have it done in perfect order. When you are finished the pistol should shoot a noticably better group either offhand or from a bench. Describe the gun you would have and what all was done to it.
Getting more accuracy????
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feralmerril
Absent Comrade
First try a lot of different ammo and see what groups best. Are you hand loading?
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Sorry, I started typeing before I read all the question. Are we looking for a certain new gun or useing something you already have? I dont consider myself a expert on this, but assumeing the gun is new I would expect the timeing and headspace is okay. A trigger job probley would be the first canidate, also how do you see the sights? Might need a change in width or color to see better. How the grips fit you, might need a change, really, except for a advanced target shooter the average shooter will probley find the gun is already more capable of better groups than the average shooter can do off hand. Put all the extra money in to ammo and practice and you will get better results.
handgunner356
Member
Every gun is unique, what works great in one gun may only be so-so in the next one off the line. As long as the gun is the proper specs, cylinder alignment, forcing cone, muzzle crown all good then it mostly a matter of finding the load it likes the best. Loads are probably a bigger factor with revolvers, it's a lot different than working with a semi-auto.
Dragon88
Member
Sell the gun NIB and buy a nice old Model 10 HB and plenty of reloading components. Load up with my favorite 38 special target load and have at it.
Obviously not the answer you were looking for. Honestly though, you are buying a S&W revolver so that it is good right out of the box. Good trigger, good accuracy. I would see no reason to spend thousands on a custom job when my most accuracy Smith is a 10-6 I bought used for $230 shooting a light target handload. The only thing that causes a miss with this revolver is me. Your criteria is to shoot better groups so I would say buy or load lots of ammo and shoot until you get better. Most guns are more accurate than their owners.
Obviously not the answer you were looking for. Honestly though, you are buying a S&W revolver so that it is good right out of the box. Good trigger, good accuracy. I would see no reason to spend thousands on a custom job when my most accuracy Smith is a 10-6 I bought used for $230 shooting a light target handload. The only thing that causes a miss with this revolver is me. Your criteria is to shoot better groups so I would say buy or load lots of ammo and shoot until you get better. Most guns are more accurate than their owners.
I always carefully clean the barrel of any new gun before I shoot it. I've gotten rid of a lot of crud left over from the rifleing process. All of my most accurate guns have had this treatment & no more trouble than it is, it's worth it.
stantheman86
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I tuned my 10-14 with Wilson Combat springs, a semi-target hammer, extended firing pin,rebound slide trigger stop.....not much effort and I shoot ragged holes with it at 25 yards.
It's a 4" fixed sight revolver that shoots like a match revolver. It's great in DA but in SA it really shines, the SA trigger break is so light and crisp it's unbelievable.
Some of my bone stock revolvers shoot so well people can't believe I haven't done any "work" on them. Most of my revolvers are stock, as they left the factory, if they work and shoot well I don't see a need to mess with 'em.....I learned the hard way "if it ain't broke, fix it until it is!" is not a good motto....
This 28-2 is bone stock, just that it had a Buehler mount and a 1.5x Redfield added. Adding a scope really brings out the mechanical accuracy of a revolver, since variables like sight alignment are eliminated. I shot this group at 40 yards with 158 gr. .38's from a sandbag rest, and the gun can no doubt do better. I will never remove the sideplate on this one, and it works as is so it will not be "slicked" or worked, there's just no need. I'm not gonna get it to do any better than it does. It has no trigger stop, or any other little gadgets and it shoots just fine.
We spend so much time trying to squeeze accuracy out of our S&W's, but the truth is, out of the box most of them shoot better than we can hold anyway
Check out the YouTube video of the guy hitting milk jugs at 100 yards shooting DA with a Model 60 1 7/8"....other tests have shown Ransom Rested magnum revolvers can shoot surprising groups out to 300 yards once the trajectory is "dialed in" and all human factors are eliminated, we're talking maximum repeatability, the muzzle of the gun not moving at all from shot to shot, something a human shooter cannot do, but those rounds will drop right in there........ and that 4" barrels are slightly more mechanically accurate than 6".......the trick is, becoming a trained and skilled shooter is reducing that "human error" like pulling shots, sight alignment errors, breaking wrists down, etc.
It's a 4" fixed sight revolver that shoots like a match revolver. It's great in DA but in SA it really shines, the SA trigger break is so light and crisp it's unbelievable.
Some of my bone stock revolvers shoot so well people can't believe I haven't done any "work" on them. Most of my revolvers are stock, as they left the factory, if they work and shoot well I don't see a need to mess with 'em.....I learned the hard way "if it ain't broke, fix it until it is!" is not a good motto....
This 28-2 is bone stock, just that it had a Buehler mount and a 1.5x Redfield added. Adding a scope really brings out the mechanical accuracy of a revolver, since variables like sight alignment are eliminated. I shot this group at 40 yards with 158 gr. .38's from a sandbag rest, and the gun can no doubt do better. I will never remove the sideplate on this one, and it works as is so it will not be "slicked" or worked, there's just no need. I'm not gonna get it to do any better than it does. It has no trigger stop, or any other little gadgets and it shoots just fine.
We spend so much time trying to squeeze accuracy out of our S&W's, but the truth is, out of the box most of them shoot better than we can hold anyway
Check out the YouTube video of the guy hitting milk jugs at 100 yards shooting DA with a Model 60 1 7/8"....other tests have shown Ransom Rested magnum revolvers can shoot surprising groups out to 300 yards once the trajectory is "dialed in" and all human factors are eliminated, we're talking maximum repeatability, the muzzle of the gun not moving at all from shot to shot, something a human shooter cannot do, but those rounds will drop right in there........ and that 4" barrels are slightly more mechanically accurate than 6".......the trick is, becoming a trained and skilled shooter is reducing that "human error" like pulling shots, sight alignment errors, breaking wrists down, etc.
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bountyhunter
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Most accuracy errors in revolver shooting is ammo related, assuming the gun has no gross defects. Autos have a whole bagful of built-in errors because of barrel/slide fit and slide frame tolerance. Any well built revolver should shoot tight groups if the ammo is good and suited to the gun.
I agree, if you were to remove all of the human factors involved and fire the gun from a ransom rest, you would see exactly what the "gun" can do. Ammo selection is critical for accuracy and obtaining that ever sought after ragged hole. As for accuracy modifications to a new revolver, a trigger/action job has always been the first thing I have done on a revolver that will be used for hunting or target shooting. Next would be to change out the sights for something more adjustable or add optics, depending on your intended use.
scooter123
Member
I've been doing some long range shooting at a nearby 50 yard indoor range. So, it's been a learning experience. I've also learned that at 50 yards I can't see the 3/4 inch diameter bull on an 8 inch shoot-n-c so most of my shooting is done at 35 yards where I can still see the bull.
One, ammo can have a distinct effect on accuracy. From my 617 I've shoot a 24 round aggragate group of 2 inches from a benchrest with my 617 using Winchester Xpert HV or Winchester Wildcat. With the copper washed Federal bulk the aggragate groups run at 3.5 inches.
I also have a model 620 that features a tensioned 2 piece barrel and it's by far my most accurate revolver. However, finding ammo that will demonstrate this accuracy has been a challenge. I recently mounted J Point reflex sights to my long range shooters and had just one box of Speer Lawman 125 grain TMJ in my stash. That ammo produced a group of just 1.75 inches that was a nearly perfect horizontal line, an indication of my release skills needing some work on that day. Had I been on my game, I have no doubt that a 1/2 to 3/4 inch group was possible. Unfortunately, Speer doesn't make this load anymore so I've been shooting with 130 grain American Eagle and seeing a lot of vertical stringing, an indication of variations in velocity. Best groups with the American Eagle run at 2.5 inches and tend to look like the letter "I". After the new year I plan on ordering some Speer Lawman 158 gr. +P TMJ and see if it's as consistent as that one box of the lighter load in my stash.
Point is ammo can double group size if it's not consistently loaded or not a good match to your barrel.
Another factor is the type of barrel used and it Mass/Energy relationship. One piece barrels do "whip" when a bullet is fired through it and this does impact accuracy. One fix for this back in the old days was to have a "bull" barrel mounted to the gun, sometimes they were as large as 1.5 inches in diameter. More recently there has been a tendancy to employ a fully lug barrel profile and this does reduce the vertical element of the "whipping", however it doesn't address the horizontal.
In the late 60's Dan Wesson split from the family business his grandfather started and set out to produce the most accurate revolver that could be made. His revolvers featured a tensioned barrel and also employed a positive lock on the yoke so that the cylinder/barrel alignment could be maintained by locking the 2 features together as close to this point as possible. Note, a tensioned barrel is a multi part assembly, an inner barrel tube that is under tension by being mounted within a surrounding shroud and retained by threads at the rear and a cap or nut at the muzzle. The result was a revolver widely reputed to be capable of sub 1/2 inch groupings at 50 yards.
More recently, S&W has employed tensioned barrels in some of their revolvers. My 620 is one with this feature and I can testify to it's superior accuracy. The new M&P R8, the TRR8, and the 386 Light Hunter also feature a tensioned barrel. When it was first released, Guns and Ammo tested the M&P R8 at 50 yards and got one 1/2 inch group with Winchester ammo in a cold barrel, when it heated up the groups opened up to an inch.
Now, there is a second benefit to a tensioned barrel beyond it's being retained at each end. That is that the barrel shroud provides a barrier that protect the barrel from being contacted during the passage of a bullet through the barrel. Remember that barrel "whip" I mentioned with one piece barrels, that barrel movement WILL NOT repeat if there is anything in contact with the barrel. With a one piece barrel, one very fast and easy way to drastically DEGRADE the accuracy is be resting the barrel on a sandbag or something similar. Barrels do "ring" in response to a bullet being fired and any thing that effects that "ring" will degrade the accuracy. How much is dependent on the Mass/Energy relationship, a very heavy barrel shooting a light caliber is pretty impervious to the effect of impeding the barrel "ring" because it so small. My 617 can be used with the barrel rested on a sandbag with no detectable effect on accuracy, my 610 on the other hand will double in group size if the barrel is in contact with anything. On the other hand with a tensioned barrel, because the barrel shroud lets the barrel ring true no matter what, I can sandbag rest the 620 without any observable effect on accuracy.
The there is the matter of sights. I'm now old enough that I can't focus on handgun sights so I'm "cheating" by using a reflex sight. Iron sights or 1:1 optics are useful out to 35 to perhaps 50 yards. Beyond that distance you really need to have some magnifiction if you really want to wring out every speck of accuracy. How much magnification is mainly dependent on how steady to are. The simple truth is that past 50 yards it's a real challenge to shoot a handgun and get tight groups. If you want to know why, just try holding a 4 X scope at arms length, you'll be shocked at how "shaky" you are.
One, ammo can have a distinct effect on accuracy. From my 617 I've shoot a 24 round aggragate group of 2 inches from a benchrest with my 617 using Winchester Xpert HV or Winchester Wildcat. With the copper washed Federal bulk the aggragate groups run at 3.5 inches.
I also have a model 620 that features a tensioned 2 piece barrel and it's by far my most accurate revolver. However, finding ammo that will demonstrate this accuracy has been a challenge. I recently mounted J Point reflex sights to my long range shooters and had just one box of Speer Lawman 125 grain TMJ in my stash. That ammo produced a group of just 1.75 inches that was a nearly perfect horizontal line, an indication of my release skills needing some work on that day. Had I been on my game, I have no doubt that a 1/2 to 3/4 inch group was possible. Unfortunately, Speer doesn't make this load anymore so I've been shooting with 130 grain American Eagle and seeing a lot of vertical stringing, an indication of variations in velocity. Best groups with the American Eagle run at 2.5 inches and tend to look like the letter "I". After the new year I plan on ordering some Speer Lawman 158 gr. +P TMJ and see if it's as consistent as that one box of the lighter load in my stash.
Point is ammo can double group size if it's not consistently loaded or not a good match to your barrel.
Another factor is the type of barrel used and it Mass/Energy relationship. One piece barrels do "whip" when a bullet is fired through it and this does impact accuracy. One fix for this back in the old days was to have a "bull" barrel mounted to the gun, sometimes they were as large as 1.5 inches in diameter. More recently there has been a tendancy to employ a fully lug barrel profile and this does reduce the vertical element of the "whipping", however it doesn't address the horizontal.
In the late 60's Dan Wesson split from the family business his grandfather started and set out to produce the most accurate revolver that could be made. His revolvers featured a tensioned barrel and also employed a positive lock on the yoke so that the cylinder/barrel alignment could be maintained by locking the 2 features together as close to this point as possible. Note, a tensioned barrel is a multi part assembly, an inner barrel tube that is under tension by being mounted within a surrounding shroud and retained by threads at the rear and a cap or nut at the muzzle. The result was a revolver widely reputed to be capable of sub 1/2 inch groupings at 50 yards.
More recently, S&W has employed tensioned barrels in some of their revolvers. My 620 is one with this feature and I can testify to it's superior accuracy. The new M&P R8, the TRR8, and the 386 Light Hunter also feature a tensioned barrel. When it was first released, Guns and Ammo tested the M&P R8 at 50 yards and got one 1/2 inch group with Winchester ammo in a cold barrel, when it heated up the groups opened up to an inch.
Now, there is a second benefit to a tensioned barrel beyond it's being retained at each end. That is that the barrel shroud provides a barrier that protect the barrel from being contacted during the passage of a bullet through the barrel. Remember that barrel "whip" I mentioned with one piece barrels, that barrel movement WILL NOT repeat if there is anything in contact with the barrel. With a one piece barrel, one very fast and easy way to drastically DEGRADE the accuracy is be resting the barrel on a sandbag or something similar. Barrels do "ring" in response to a bullet being fired and any thing that effects that "ring" will degrade the accuracy. How much is dependent on the Mass/Energy relationship, a very heavy barrel shooting a light caliber is pretty impervious to the effect of impeding the barrel "ring" because it so small. My 617 can be used with the barrel rested on a sandbag with no detectable effect on accuracy, my 610 on the other hand will double in group size if the barrel is in contact with anything. On the other hand with a tensioned barrel, because the barrel shroud lets the barrel ring true no matter what, I can sandbag rest the 620 without any observable effect on accuracy.
The there is the matter of sights. I'm now old enough that I can't focus on handgun sights so I'm "cheating" by using a reflex sight. Iron sights or 1:1 optics are useful out to 35 to perhaps 50 yards. Beyond that distance you really need to have some magnifiction if you really want to wring out every speck of accuracy. How much magnification is mainly dependent on how steady to are. The simple truth is that past 50 yards it's a real challenge to shoot a handgun and get tight groups. If you want to know why, just try holding a 4 X scope at arms length, you'll be shocked at how "shaky" you are.
Most guns have more inherent accuracy than 99 out of 100 people can utilize. But since you want to maximize accuracy of the gun, you need to take the shooter out of the equation.
You need to use a Ransom Rest or something similar to find out what the gun by itself can do.
Then you can start working on the gun/shooter combination. Aside from making sure the gun meets specs such as timing, chamber and bore dimensions, etc., I don't really know any accurizing tricks for revolvers other than finding a load that it likes and sights that you like.
You need to use a Ransom Rest or something similar to find out what the gun by itself can do.
Then you can start working on the gun/shooter combination. Aside from making sure the gun meets specs such as timing, chamber and bore dimensions, etc., I don't really know any accurizing tricks for revolvers other than finding a load that it likes and sights that you like.
stantheman86
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I only "worked" a few of my revolvers for fun, because I like the feel of a slick trigger.
Any one of my S&W or Ruger revolvers will shoot as well as I need them to. Unless you shoot in matches or "gun games" there is not much to gain from working over a S&W unless you do it just for fun.
Any one of my S&W or Ruger revolvers will shoot as well as I need them to. Unless you shoot in matches or "gun games" there is not much to gain from working over a S&W unless you do it just for fun.
stevieboy
Member
I think that the biggest variable in determining accuracy is the shooter and the second biggest is ammunition. After that, assuming no manufacturing defect, everything else is minimal. As for the shooter, you have to categorize, shooting from a rest vs. shooting off hand, double vs. single action. I shoot all of my revolvers double action exclusively and without resting them. Do I maximize my guns' accuracy? Hell no! With my aging eyes and my little hand tremors I'll never shoot as well as the most inaccurate of my handguns is capable of shooting.
Ammunition introduces a whole additional set of variables into the equation. I don't reload so I'm left with factory ammo as a choice. I also have a budget, so I can't fire ultra-premium match grade ammo when I shoot. Even with that, I've discovered that different brands of ammo can produce huge differences in a given gun. Yesterday, for example, I fired my 625JM at the range. I've zeroed the sights for Magtech FMJ 230gr. ammo. With that, the gun is dead on accurate for me at 10 yards, and shoots very well at 25. Yesterday, I happened to shoot a box of Speer 185gr. "leadless" FMJ. Every round I fired at 10 yards was 2" lower than my point of aim. At 25 yards, fuggedaboudit.
Ammunition introduces a whole additional set of variables into the equation. I don't reload so I'm left with factory ammo as a choice. I also have a budget, so I can't fire ultra-premium match grade ammo when I shoot. Even with that, I've discovered that different brands of ammo can produce huge differences in a given gun. Yesterday, for example, I fired my 625JM at the range. I've zeroed the sights for Magtech FMJ 230gr. ammo. With that, the gun is dead on accurate for me at 10 yards, and shoots very well at 25. Yesterday, I happened to shoot a box of Speer 185gr. "leadless" FMJ. Every round I fired at 10 yards was 2" lower than my point of aim. At 25 yards, fuggedaboudit.
Ask the same question in a Ruger forum and you'll get vastly different answers. 
Bowen and Linebaugh don't charge big-$$ for nothing.
I believe the 2-piece tensioned barrel system contributes to excellent accuracy and is largely the reason that Dan Wesson guns have the following they do.
Consistency is key, others have touched on ammunition which is true but the next area is dimensional tolerances and variance in the gun. Throat diameters especially. For all the squawking some do about hand-fitting and forged whatever and lament the loss of pre-everything, the new guns are tighter and more consistent.
Bowen and Linebaugh don't charge big-$$ for nothing.
I believe the 2-piece tensioned barrel system contributes to excellent accuracy and is largely the reason that Dan Wesson guns have the following they do.
Consistency is key, others have touched on ammunition which is true but the next area is dimensional tolerances and variance in the gun. Throat diameters especially. For all the squawking some do about hand-fitting and forged whatever and lament the loss of pre-everything, the new guns are tighter and more consistent.
Prior to the advent of CNC, every process step in manufacturing a S&W revolver was manual machining or hand-fitting and these guns were the ones from which S&W earned its well-deserved reputation for accuracy, reliability and aesethics. S&W didn't acquire it's reputation from CNC machined guns or MIM parts.
They may not hurt anything (although many would argue differently) but they haven't helped, either.
They may not hurt anything (although many would argue differently) but they haven't helped, either.
Thanks for all the info so far...I am hearing some really good ideas and thoughts. I understand and agree completely about ammo and shooters so lets assume we already have the most accurate possible ammo and are shooting from a Ransom rest so the shooter or human element is gone. Remember, time and money is no object...you just have to end up with the most accurate your revolver can be.
stantheman86
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You would need some uber-custom from Pinnacle or Bowen with every tacti-cool accuracy option......... an ultra-bull barrel, an SA trigger pull so light a gnat could set it off, with a trigger stop that allows for 0 overtravel, an 18x LER scope, and some grips custom molded to fit just your hand perfectly.
Even after all that, most shooters couldn't take advantage of the accuracy potential.
GP100 with "One Ragged Hole" rear aperture sight and HiViz front sight. Can't miss with this one.
A GP100 I assembled from parts, has a Trijicon mini dot and it's the fastest on target of all my revolvers. Wherever the dot is, the bullet follows. I might have to upgrade this one to HD status after I get done "tweaking" it.
This is more of a .44 Magnum revolving carbine with no stock, 9.5" barrel and a 6x Burris scope. Shoots like a rifle out to 100 yards.
My Rugers are some of my most accurate revolvers and they can turn the X-Ring or head area of a B-27 target into a shredded hole at 25 yards, and that's about as much as I can ask from a handgun! The Rugers may trade a little slickness in the action and a minute degree of accuracy for raw durability and strength, but they don't give up enough accuracy for 99% of shooters to have to worry about.
It's like not buying a Dodge Challenger and getting a Ferrari because the Ferrari tops out at 240 mph.........but how many people will actually take it that high?
How many people can make a 2,000 yard shot even with a highly tuned sniper rifle?
Even after all that, most shooters couldn't take advantage of the accuracy potential.
GP100 with "One Ragged Hole" rear aperture sight and HiViz front sight. Can't miss with this one.
A GP100 I assembled from parts, has a Trijicon mini dot and it's the fastest on target of all my revolvers. Wherever the dot is, the bullet follows. I might have to upgrade this one to HD status after I get done "tweaking" it.
This is more of a .44 Magnum revolving carbine with no stock, 9.5" barrel and a 6x Burris scope. Shoots like a rifle out to 100 yards.
My Rugers are some of my most accurate revolvers and they can turn the X-Ring or head area of a B-27 target into a shredded hole at 25 yards, and that's about as much as I can ask from a handgun! The Rugers may trade a little slickness in the action and a minute degree of accuracy for raw durability and strength, but they don't give up enough accuracy for 99% of shooters to have to worry about.
It's like not buying a Dodge Challenger and getting a Ferrari because the Ferrari tops out at 240 mph.........but how many people will actually take it that high?
How many people can make a 2,000 yard shot even with a highly tuned sniper rifle?
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Vulcan Bob
Member
On a factory new gun I first give it a inspection and a good cleaning. Then if the grips do not suit me that is addressed. Since I shoot mainly cast bullets I will put a hundred rounds of jacketed ammo down the tube to "burnish" the bore a bit. Then just shoot it a lot, find it's preferred load and shoot it a lot more! Unless there is a identifiable problem this is all that I find is needed. I am not a world class accuracy shooter and anything more than I am capable of is not needed. As usuall results can and do vary!
I get pretty decent results from my revolvers. First I clean them thoroughly. I make sure the mechanical aspects of the revolver are as correct as possible. Then I try several brands of ammo. I try different bullet weights/types. I then handload some sample recipes and try them out. Some will shoot better than others. I take the best and repeat the process to come up with several that give the best results with that revolver. Sometimes the results are remarkable. I've had instances where w/ iron sights a revolver would produce 6 shot groups of less than one inch off sandbags at 25 yds. I've had some revolvers that would give less than 4 inch groups at 100 yds. with iron sights from sandbags. I am very pleased with a revolver that will put 12 shots (twice around the cylinder) into 2 inches at 25 yds. Currently I own only a few handguns... a Glock G-22 for HD/range and several S&W's... M18-2, 28-2, 625-2. The 18 will put 12 shots into less than 2 inches at 25 yds. fired with my hands resting on the top of the car roof. The 28 and 625 will do just about as well with their best loads. I bought a 686-1 a few weeks ago. Once I go through the process of development, I think it will be a equally good shooter.
stantheman86
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Heck I even have a Taurus 82 that shoots better with 158's than it probably should.......not bad for a $130 ex-rent a cop gun! Must be a fluke, I bought 2 others out of the "lot" and one hits like 2 feet low and the other 2 feet to the right. By sheer luck Taurus got the one dialed in perfectly with those fixed sights and it can shoot as well as any of my S&W's. Makes a good range blaster.
I have a Colt Police Positive that shoots so far off the sights I don't even bother with it.....
You just never know, my total beater ex-PD 6" 10-5 shoots a little better than my 14-2 8 3/8", maybe I just haven't found the right ammo for the 14. But that 10-5 is scary accurate, it shoots groups at 100 yards if you hold a couple inches high. The cop who had that one must have never had trouble qualifying with it......also have a Model 36 that shoots better than any snub should.
I have a Colt Police Positive that shoots so far off the sights I don't even bother with it.....
You just never know, my total beater ex-PD 6" 10-5 shoots a little better than my 14-2 8 3/8", maybe I just haven't found the right ammo for the 14. But that 10-5 is scary accurate, it shoots groups at 100 yards if you hold a couple inches high. The cop who had that one must have never had trouble qualifying with it......also have a Model 36 that shoots better than any snub should.
