Gotta Get better With My J frame

[daddy bear]

I have five J-frames. Two, A nickel 38 and one 60 are bone stock. My cary 42 has the banana grip, a 60 has Pachmayer rubbers, another 60 has a set of Herrets that have extra fill along the back strap. Daughter has the stock 60. Another daughter has my favorite carry pistol of all, a 1908 Colt .380. Nice,thin and flat.

As far as shooting goes, I see little difference in the 42 and the two 60s that are in my possession.

Different folks have different skills. And of my favorite hands worked under my supervision as a setgeant, lieutenant, and captain. At the range for qualification, I out shot him for score every time. Range days were generally fun times, and my guy usually suckered someone into a bet for lunch on who could hit a coke can at fifty yards with fewer shots. Service gun, off duty carry gun, or whatever. He most always had lunch on someone else, if he could find a taker. He just had that uncanny ability on longish shots, even with a J-frame.

Try different ammo. Your barrel may not be clocked properly. You may need a different grip. Somewhere there is an answer.

My three daughters are all good with 60s at 15-25 yards. One of them shoots a handgun better than her shotgun. Explain that?

Best wishes,

Jack

 

[tlandon]

Snubbies

Why do people insist in shooting "belly guns" at 25 yards? They are not meant for that. Ask Jack Ruby. His was plenty accurate at the distance the gun was made for.

Also, Hick-Cock45 is bought and payed for by Buds Guns. Stopped watching his bias **** long ago. Online gun stores like Buds hurt local gun shops, like the one I work in. They aren't required to charge sales tax, sell at ridiculously low margins that we can't compete with. Get special prices from distributors because they write big checks. But the sheeple will buy from them to save $10 bucks. Makes it really hard to keep the doors open.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I have had a few over the years, and got a really nice Model 60 No Dash last month. Shot it once and I can hit at 10 yards but my shots are consistently left. Put a Tyler T grip on it and shot it again today. Not much better. I can still hit at 15 yards but groups open up even more.

I've been shooting for a long time. I'm not jerking the trigger. I'm not flinching. Single action not much better than double.

Different stocks would probably help, but I don't want to put rubber on such a classy gun. For self defense purposes, the gun is fine. Just don't think I'm gonna be shooting 2 liter bottles at 15 yards like Hicock45 does. Only way for me to hit a small paper plate at 10 yards is to move the sights about 3 inches to to right, so I aim 3 inches to the right of the plate.

I was shooting my 158 grain lead SWC reloads, loaded middle of the road for Red Dot powder I used to make them.

Have somebody else shoot it . . .

 

[Arik]

Why do people insist in shooting "belly guns" at 25 yards? They are not meant for that. Ask Jack Ruby. His was plenty accurate at the distance the gun was made for.

Also, Hick-Cock45 is bought and payed for by Buds Guns. Stopped watching his bias **** long ago. Online gun stores like Buds hurt local gun shops, like the one I work in. They aren't required to charge sales tax, sell at ridiculously low margins that we can't compete with. Get special prices from distributors because they write big checks. But the sheeple will buy from them to save $10 bucks. Makes it really hard to keep the doors open.

Why limit yourself to under 5 yards? Ruby was assaulting someone not defending himself. Any gun can work when you walk up to someone and pull the trigger.

I don't know Hickock. Seen a few of his episodes but they aren't my taste. However, it does come down to saving money. I don't buy from Buds because typically I can get the game thing for the same price at local stores here. It comes down to your area and what your distributor can get you.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Pisgah]

I was cured of your problem decades back, and have since cured numerous other folks along the way. The secret to a cure can be expressed in two words -- dry fire.

You see, the chances are almost 100% that the problem is not your gun but your gripping and trigger-control techniques. Some believe that their accustomed technique should work for every gun out there; they are wrong. You wouldn't expect your years of expertly driving a tractor to translate directly to high-performance driving of a Ferrari, would you? Nope.

Here's what you do:
--First, be brutally honest with yourself. It's your fault, and you need to make the changes required to fix the problem.
-- Second, in a comfortable place pick a small target for your dry fire exercises. Make sure your gun is empty -- and when I do this, I check to make sure the gun is empty and make sure no ammo is even in the same room with me.
-- Third, take careful aim at your chosen target. Using your accustomed grip and trigger pull, "fire" a "shot" while focusing your attention solely on the front sight. Note how that front sight moves relative to the target as the shot breaks. Here's a guarantee -- it's moving left.
-- Fourth, and this can be the most time-consuming part, begin experimenting and see what it takes to stop the adverse movement. Alter your grip subtly; try gripping a bit higher, lower, tighter, looser. Alter your finger position; use the tip of your finger, and if that doesn't work (probably won't) move the finger in to the guard more, gradually working toward the point where the first joint rests directly on the trigger.
--Fifth -- for DA fire, do not "stage"the pull; rather, work on firmly, decisively and quickly "rolling" through the trigger pull in one continuous stroke.

Somewhere in all this, you will find the sweet spot of hold and trigger control. Identify that, then practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature.

Problem solved.

 

[Huskerhunter]

I was cured of your problem decades back, and have since cured numerous other folks along the way. The secret to a cure can be expressed in two words -- dry fire.

You see, the chances are almost 100% that the problem is not your gun but your gripping and trigger-control techniques. Some believe that their accustomed technique should work for every gun out there; they are wrong. You wouldn't expect your years of expertly driving a tractor to translate directly to high-performance driving of a Ferrari, would you? Nope.

Here's what you do:
--First, be brutally honest with yourself. It's your fault, and you need to make the changes required to fix the problem.
-- Second, in a comfortable place pick a small target for your dry fire exercises. Make sure your gun is empty -- and when I do this, I check to make sure the gun is empty and make sure no ammo is even in the same room with me.
-- Third, take careful aim at your chosen target. Using your accustomed grip and trigger pull, "fire" a "shot" while focusing your attention solely on the front sight. Note how that front sight moves relative to the target as the shot breaks. Here's a guarantee -- it's moving left.
-- Fourth, and this can be the most time-consuming part, begin experimenting and see what it takes to stop the adverse movement. Alter your grip subtly; try gripping a bit higher, lower, tighter, looser. Alter your finger position; use the tip of your finger, and if that doesn't work (probably won't) move the finger in to the guard more, gradually working toward the point where the first joint rests directly on the trigger.
--Fifth -- for DA fire, do not "stage"the pull; rather, work on firmly, decisively and quickly "rolling" through the trigger pull in one continuous stroke.

Somewhere in all this, you will find the sweet spot of hold and trigger control. Identify that, then practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature.

Problem solved.

I smiled when I read this because it's exactly what I learned in an unexpected way. I bought a FN-X 45 and put a RMR sight on it. One of the things I love about the RMR always being on is that it's very convenient to dry fire, and the green dot is perfectly co-witnessed to the irons.

When I was dry firing you could see the green dot moving left as I squeezed the trigger. Way more perceptibly than with the irons. More than anything I was not putting enough isometric pressure on the left side of the gun with my off hand. As a bullseye shooter I never what the heck I'm doing with both hands on the gun!

It would be interesting to put laser grips on the gun for same purpose. You'll learn fast from the feedback.

I'll add that with my K frames I had adjusted all my rear sights to compensate for my shots generally going a bit left. Lazy.

 

[dcopper]

Good information from Pisgah, It also works!

 

[model3sw]

You have been given some good advice per Pisgah (above)

Don't beat yourself up to badly A 2" barrel J Frame in .38 Special is not a target gun ... even if it is the Target versions ... that when I first saw one many years ago .... looked like a mutation.

That big front "fin" front sight and adjustable rear sights. I thought, "to what purpose" ? It's ugly, ungodly, mutated configuration. It looked so wierd to me that I started collecting the target sighted versions. Go figure what and / or why a collector chooses certain models over others.

Any short barreled gun if more effective at close range. There are no Lone Ranger shots of shooting a gun out of an assailant's hand with a J Frame nor is that a logical decision at any distance with any gun.

I'm a tall guy with large hands. A J-frame, right out of the box with factory grips, the round butt just rolls in my hand, no matter how I try to vise-grip hold it. I lock it tight then aim lower than the target. A more friendly when using .38 Special non +p, or target loads, but just marginally less.

Don't waste time and money on the Uncle Mike's boot grips or any other such smaller type grips. While they may work better for you than they did for me, I find Pachmayr grips make the controllability much better.

I like the oversize, finger-grooved Pachmayrs. While these grips hampers the concealable aspects of the small revolver, the difference in accuracy and comfort is worth it, I think.

When the Chief Special was first produced it was even smaller than it is now, based on an I-frame which was perfect the .22 (Walter Roper raved about the .22/.32 .22 caliber I-frames) and .22/32,.32 revolvers like the Terrier in .32 S&W.

If you can pull even a loose but consistent group with .38 Special (non +P) at 5 yards, you're doing fine. At 10 yards, even better. At 15 yards, you're a Master.

The square butt version is a bit better for accuracy but just a little. I had been gifted a Model 36 square butt with a Tyler aluminum grip adapter by a dear mentor of mine who has long since passed. In his memory I have left it exactly as he gifted it to me. Maybe it is his spirit in that Model 36 or the aluminum Tyler grip adapters (which feel much better in-hand than the plastic grip adapters) I can do quite well at 15 yards even though I'm older now.

If you're really serious about this, get a set of Crimson Trace grips. I have not recently researched anything better or newer. CT is now a division of S&W. When using a laser sighted revolver you can just practice on a dry fire or with dummy rounds in the cylinders on a NRA target to see EXACTLY what you're doing wrong.

If you never used laser sights, you'd be surprised to discover how much "dancing" goes on between the time the hammer is all t he way back and ready to fire, to when actually pull the trigger. If you're trying double action, you can made modern abstract art with the patterns that you will visibly notice.

I'm an advocate of laser sights on a self defense gun. There are many sweet, accurate and reasonably priced laser sights but I don't like a "thing" hanging off the barrel or trigger guard.

The Crimson Trace grips just about does it all. It is ON as soon as you squeeze the grip and are priced accordingly but when you think of it, it's a very sound investment. CT even makes a budget model with a very friendly switch on the top of the grip. I tried a few sets of the "budget" CT target grips but I cannot get accustomed to that "plastic" feel.

I have a set or Crimson Trace, Defender Series Part Number: DS-124 round butt, still sealed in the plastic bubble pack if anyone needs.

 

[CScott]

I was able to find a Mod 632-1 a couple of months ago. This 327 Fed Magnum with Eagle factory ammo is a serious revolver with a really sharp, snap of a kick. The rubber stocks that came on it are very skinny and the knuckle on my middle finger got severely bruised by getting hit by the trigger guard for 50 rounds. Shooting at 25 yds I could only manage 6 to 7 inch groups resting off the back of my car.
I put larger Pachmyer stocks on it and the groups shrank to about 4-5 inches. The piece still fits into my front pocket but is not as "concealable". My knuckle doesn't get hit by the trigger guard anymore either.
My first 327 handloads with 120gr cast bullets are even doing a little better. More work to do but so far, so good.
I want to carry this little gun while stream fishing/backpacking in the mountains so 25 yd accuracy is important to me. A kit gun with real power. (Besides, I can't get my Mod 63 back from my son anyway.)
It seems to me that if I can hit at 25 yds (or more), I should be good to go at 7 yds.

 

[tops]

Have somebody else shoot it . . .

That is the first thing I do if I have a problem with a gun. I find that most people won't take that advice.
After it is determined it is a shooter problem use a laser and dry fire to correct the problem. Larry

 

[H Richard]

You need grips that fit your hand. Altamont has several J Frame wood grips that are attractive and large enough to fit your hand.

 

[tacotime]

Or get a grinder and a solid block of metal and make yourself up a new one in less time than it takes to work through all the replies!

No, really, I have this issue on almost every J Frame.

TRY THIS: Shoot LEFT HANDED and watch that drift go away. At least it did for me, suggesting the drift was inherent in the way the gun physically reacts to the shape/grip of the right hand.

I think simple physics may be at work - the shape of the frame/grip against a grip hand that is non-symetrical moving a small and light gun in reaction to the fired shot does not produce an exactly vertical recoil movement. Could be a certain bone structure in your right hand causes the gun to move slightly left during recoil.

I have to hold all J-frames at 3 or 4 o'clock to get an on-target strike when shooting right handed.

 

[Ranger514]

Lots of good advice. I'm sure the OP can cure the issue with a little practice using different factory loads. A lot of folks have difficulty with the heavy stock trigger pull most of us encounter with the little J Frames. Concentrate on a straight, steady pull back. It doesn't take much sideways pressure to throw rounds off mark. As someone else recommended, dry firing with a laser grip will immediately show you how much movement is made during trigger pull.

 

[springer99]

You have been given some good advice per Pisgah (above)

Don't beat yourself up to badly A 2" barrel J Frame in .38 Special is not a target gun ... even if it is the Target versions ... that when I first saw one many years ago .... looked like a mutation.

That big front "fin" front sight and adjustable rear sights. I thought, "to what purpose" ? It's ugly, ungodly, mutated configuration. It looked so wierd to me that I started collecting the target sighted versions. Go figure what and / or why a collector chooses certain models over others.

Any short barreled gun if more effective at close range. There are no Lone Ranger shots of shooting a gun out of an assailant's hand with a J Frame nor is that a logical decision at any distance with any gun.

I'm a tall guy with large hands. A J-frame, right out of the box with factory grips, the round butt just rolls in my hand, no matter how I try to vise-grip hold it. I lock it tight then aim lower than the target. A more friendly when using .38 Special non +p, or target loads, but just marginally less.

Don't waste time and money on the Uncle Mike's boot grips or any other such smaller type grips. While they may work better for you than they did for me, I find Pachmayr grips make the controllability much better.

I like the oversize, finger-grooved Pachmayrs. While these grips hampers the concealable aspects of the small revolver, the difference in accuracy and comfort is worth it, I think.

When the Chief Special was first produced it was even smaller than it is now, based on an I-frame which was perfect the .22 (Walter Roper raved about the .22/.32 .22 caliber I-frames) and .22/32,.32 revolvers like the Terrier in .32 S&W.

If you can pull even a loose but consistent group with .38 Special (non +P) at 5 yards, you're doing fine. At 10 yards, even better. At 15 yards, you're a Master.

The square butt version is a bit better for accuracy but just a little. I had been gifted a Model 36 square butt with a Tyler aluminum grip adapter by a dear mentor of mine who has long since passed. In his memory I have left it exactly as he gifted it to me. Maybe it is his spirit in that Model 36 or the aluminum Tyler grip adapters (which feel much better in-hand than the plastic grip adapters) I can do quite well at 15 yards even though I'm older now.

If you're really serious about this, get a set of Crimson Trace grips. I have not recently researched anything better or newer. CT is now a division of S&W. When using a laser sighted revolver you can just practice on a dry fire or with dummy rounds in the cylinders on a NRA target to see EXACTLY what you're doing wrong.

If you never used laser sights, you'd be surprised to discover how much "dancing" goes on between the time the hammer is all t he way back and ready to fire, to when actually pull the trigger. If you're trying double action, you can made modern abstract art with the patterns that you will visibly notice.

I'm an advocate of laser sights on a self defense gun. There are many sweet, accurate and reasonably priced laser sights but I don't like a "thing" hanging off the barrel or trigger guard.

The Crimson Trace grips just about does it all. It is ON as soon as you squeeze the grip and are priced accordingly but when you think of it, it's a very sound investment. CT even makes a budget model with a very friendly switch on the top of the grip. I tried a few sets of the "budget" CT target grips but I cannot get accustomed to that "plastic" feel.

I have a set or Crimson Trace, Defender Series Part Number: DS-124 round butt, still sealed in the plastic bubble pack if anyone needs.

A lot of great information is above.

AFAIC, too many folks can't seem to shoot J frames well, because the internet tells them it's so. My daughter, who never fired a revolver before, picked up my 642, fitted with CT laser grips and, after one cylinder of +P 38Spls., proceeded to hammer the 8-10ring on a reduced size silhouette target at 10yds. She loved it!

 

[old bear]

Nobody else has shot it. I can't imagine what I can do to work on it. Been shooting for a long time. Laser accurate with my K frames. Smooth and steady trigger pull and sights dont move at all. I'll keep shooting it, and I won't sell it. Classy old gun. at 15 yards, the target was hit in kill zones. I'll probably get a bit better with it, but can't imagine hitting 2 liter bottles at 15 yards, not without some Kentucky windage.

IMHO, J frames and the like are called Belly Guns for a very good reason. Solid hits at 15 yards or 45 feet is about the outer limits for most mortal shooters.
As someone suggested try adding a BK adapter, they are not real costly and they do look cool, to boot.

 

[snowman.45]

Why do people insist in shooting "belly guns" at 25 yards? They are not meant for that. Ask Jack Ruby. His was plenty accurate at the distance the gun was made for.

Also, Hick-Cock45 is bought and payed for by Buds Guns. Stopped watching his bias **** long ago. Online gun stores like Buds hurt local gun shops, like the one I work in. They aren't required to charge sales tax, sell at ridiculously low margins that we can't compete with. Get special prices from distributors because they write big checks. But the sheeple will buy from them to save $10 bucks. Makes it really hard to keep the doors open.

The term "belly gun" is pure BS. Any quality made gun should be capable of mechanical accuracy. The rest is on the shooter. The J-frame is capable of hitting and grouping at any range the shooter is capable of. The size of the gun itself can be a limiting factor due to anatomy, but the guns are no less target capable because of their size, only the user's ability and physical attributes.

 

[tacotime]

Oh, and I forgot this little discovery from when I was trying to figure out my own J frame drift: Hold the gun sideways "gangsta style" and see the results. Pretty sure the same drift will not be seen (meaning no downward drift in this case).

The disappearing drift using the sideways hold pretty much proved it was a hold/grip/recoil action issue for me.

The sideways hold was analyzed in another thread. Someone with knowledge of hand anatomy said the turning of the forearm tightens certain muscles and changes the effective grip. I think they said the optimum hold is actually 45 degrees tilt instead of the full 90 "gansta".

 

[tlandon]

The term "belly gun" is pure BS. Any quality made gun should be capable of mechanical accuracy. The rest is on the shooter. The J-frame is capable of hitting and grouping at any range the shooter is capable of. The size of the gun itself can be a limiting factor due to anatomy, but the guns are no less target capable because of their size, only the user's ability and physical attributes.

2" or less barrel, target capable?. Grouping at any range? The Belly Gun term was originated for a reason.

 

[tacotime]

Significant support for barrel length not being a factor in the true consistency/accuracy of the revolver mechanism itself.

Adding a variable human operator is another question.

 

[snowman.45]

2" or less barrel, target capable?. Grouping at any range? The Belly Gun term was originated for a reason.

Maybe you need more practice. I listed my experience. There is a reason I said that the "belly gun" label is BS. I've seen their capabilities in the hands of those who are willing to put in the training time. Mechanical accuracy is achieved through the gun. The rest is on the shooter.