Gun show find..rare .41 Magnum ammo....

[SuperMan]

Was at a great gun show today in Marlboro, Mass. Came away with three boxes of factory Remington .41 Magnum for only $30.00 a box...one 210 Soft Point and two boxes of the very rare 170 grain HPs...I think they were only marketed one year. I have only seen one picture of a box of this ammo in a magazine article and two years ago found one box at a gun show. Although Remington markets 200 grain JHP bullets they have never offered a loaded round with this bullet which is a shame as this is what shooters who don't reload could use. I have never seen 170 grain bullets offered as a loading component....

Once upon a time Speer made a short run of Aluminum cased Blaser in .41 Magnum with their 200 grain SWC JHP bullet...I have seen a picture of six rounds that came with someones used gun but have never seen a listing for this ammo...another great idea that got flushed down some corperate toilet.....

Bob

 

[sub-moa]

Great find Bob, congratulations!

Its unusual enough to find original 210 SWC or 210 JSP, but 170 SJHP? Have not seen that for years.

Wow!

 

[Combat_Diver]

I thought Remington still sales the 170 JHP as a bulk component? Must have been thinking about the Sierra 170 JHP. Stand corrected.

CD

 

[kscardsfan]

What was the applicaton for the 170 gr? Thinner skinned animals or what?

 

[steveno]

I bought a box of the Remington 170 grain ammo when I worked at Cabela's thinking it was kind of a reduced loading like the Winchester 175 grain Silvertip. I was wrong in that thinking. it was very loud and recoil was very stiff in a Ruger 6.5 Blackhawk. I wished I would have chronographed it.

 

[flop-shank]

I love stuff like this!

A hotrod 170 grain JHP would be great for a self defense load in that caliber for those who can handle it, especially with that scalloped SJHP bullet. Really, a slightly lighter bullet would probably work even better. I'm thinking 150 grains, or so. Think of it as R357M1's bigger brother.

Bob, if you send one of those over a chrono, I'd love to hear what that load does from a 5" barrel if you have one. The numbers from other barrel lengths would be very interesting too, particularly 4 and 6" guns. If you don't want to burn any up, that is, of course, understandable.

I'm getting 1005 fpe. (1656 fps.) from my 5" .44 mag with my 165 gr. JHP handload. It would be neat to see how close that Remington factory load comes energy wise. My SWAG is that it tops 850 fpe. from a 6" gun and maybe 900.

IIRC, Corbon makes a 170 gr. JHP load too. Running a Sierra bullet, such a load should be roughly the equivalent of those Remingtons. Lots of fragments.

 

[SuperMan]

I did chronograph some from the last box and I will see if I can find the exact numbers...but I think it was in the 1400s from a 4" barrel. Recoil was much less than the 210s.

170s are great for personal defense. I have also killed deer with 180 grain .44s from handguns with complete penetration.

These bullets have Remingtons famous scallop jacket which I bet will open better than the 170 grain Sierra HPs that while "Power Jacket" with a notched jacket, is still designed as a hunting bullet and is a little tough. CorBon uses Sierra 170s in their reduced velocity SD load at 1275 fps from a 4" gun and I will bet it doesn't expand as well as the 175 Winchester SilverTip HP at 1250 from a 4".

Used to be one could buy both the Remington 200 JHP and the 210 JSP for reloading but I have not seen the 210s in many years. Remington now lists the 210 loaded ammo as a "seasonal" offering at $48.00 a box WHOLESALE! Federal has a MUCH wider selection of .41 Magnum ammo but only come in 20 round boxes at much higher prices...

Best if one reload for the .41...

Bob

 

[SuperMan]

..apparently Flop neither of us have anything better to do on a Sunday morning other than post at the same time...

Chrono results from a 4" barrel Model 57:

Federal Vital Shok 210 Barnes 1304

Speer 210 Gold Dot HP 1185

Winchester 240 Platinum Tip 1166

CorBon 170 1273

Winchester 175 SilverTip 1202 (1293 6")

Federal 210 Fusion 1280

Remington 170 1365

Remington 210 SP 1247 (1310 6", 1650 14" TC, 1705 20" Marlin)

Federal 210 HP 1266 (1350 6", 1650 14" TC, 1780 20" Marlin)

Federal 250 CastCore 1100 (can't find my notes on this one but remember it was the slowest of the factory rounds.)

Bob

 

[SuperMan]

Flop...where are you getting 165 grain bullets for the .44? Those the ones you pulled from the CorBon ammo?

Bob

 

[flop-shank]

Flop...where are you getting 165 grain bullets for the .44? Those the ones you pulled from the CorBon ammo?

Yeah. No one makes the load I want, so I had to do it myself. Those Sierra 165s have a thin jacket and behave like Remington .357 125 gr. SJHPs from a 6" 686 when fired into Perma-Gel, except my .44s are roughly matching the velocity coming from my 5" 629s barrel and push 40 grains more metal. When fired into P-G the recovered bullet weight is roughly 80 - 100 grains, .62" as I recall. Penetration is a consistent 12 1/2", four layers, or bare gel. Fired into woodchucks, the results are rifle like.

I use 180 gr. Hornady XTP/H110 data. I only shoot a couple cylinders twice a year so as not to break the piggy bank. That load is amazingly accurate too. From a rest, while rechecking my zero in December, I put two of three shots through the same hole at twenty five yards. Number three was right next to them.

Using that light of a bullet required I switch to a shorter front sight, or my rear sight would be jacked sky high. The 5" classic barrel on mine has a Weigand interchangeable sight system, so a sight switch was no big deal. Other guns might need a taller rear sight.

I use a 180 gr. recoil clone (utilizing the Remington 180 gr. nonscalloped SJHP bullet for the bulk of my practice). It's POI is close enough for close range practice. I've seriously considered getting a mold made for a 165 gr. gas checked bullet made. If I ever get off my butt and start casting, I certainly will.

I use a dual Mag-na-ported full underlug barrel to keep the beast under control. It's quite a handful.

Someone adverse to using handloads would be best served by the Federal 180 gr. JHP, and I would too, but my memory tells me that Fed. 180 has harsher recoil, and I already have my hands full enough. They also don't exibit 125 gr. .357 style fragmentation and slightly less consistency in their depth of penetration (10"-13").

 

[SuperMan]

Hey, if you want turn inside out performance in a .44 have you tried the Speer 200 grain Gold Dot HP? I was so impressed by the bullet I went out and bought a .44 after not owning one for 20 years just to shoot some..

The bullet has a HP that looks like it goes to the base of the bullet and Speer loads it in their .44 Special and the .44 Magnum Short Barrel Load. The Special is going 860 from a 6.5" and the Magnum 1080 from a 4"...really great factory load for those with .44 Magnums as they expand EVERY time...not so at Special velocities...

We must have had close to the same guns... I traded a friend a MG for his first year of production P&R 629 that he had a Classic Mag-Na-Ported 5" barrel put on. The factory said it was a leftover from a special run for a distributor. I just sold it to his nephew so as to keep it in his family and now I just have a 4" 99 vintage Mountain Gun and Ruger 77/44 All-Weather rifle.

Posted this post over on another forum and someone responded that from their 4" 57 the Buffalo Bore 170s clocked 1536 fps...smokin'...

Bob

 

[Sugar River]

Once upon a time Speer made a short run of Aluminum cased Blaser in .41 Magnum with their 200 grain SWC JHP bullet...I have seen a picture of six rounds that came with someones used gun but have never seen a listing for this ammo...another great idea that got flushed down some corperate toilet.....

Bob

You mean like this? I had another box which got burned up before they became valuable.
Pete

 

[BillCa]

Today, more than ever, there's a broader selection of .41 Magnum ammo that ever before. That's a good thing™.

The bad news is that no one seems to think of the .41 Magnum as anything but a hunting gun. Most of the ammo is geared towards 1200 fps+ hunting ammo.

The .41 Mag's old "police load" used to push a 210 LSWC out of a 6-inch M57 at around 1100 fps (our chrono read 1133 fps). This was stout but not obnoxious. And from what I have read of the few police shootings involving the .41, this load was tremendously good at taking the fight out of thugs.

Most of the reloaded ammo seems to be only 850 fps (not bad) but no one seems to make a 950-1000 fps load which would be an excellent defense load. Especially with that Speer (Blaser) 200gr LSWC-HP.

Any advice on finding .41 Mag LSWC loaded to about 900-1000 fps would be greatly appreciated.

 

[flop-shank]

I kind of, sort of agree with BillCa. There is a need for midrange self defense loads in the .44 and .41 magnum since folks want them, but the area they totally ignore is full house self defense barn burners, like the 125 gr. .357, for those of us that train up to that level and aspire to deal in that kind of power. Either way big bore magnum revolvers are, as Bill has mentioned, all but totally ignored. I don't own a .41, but my hunch is that the hot 170 grainers are just a fuzz heavy to be optimal in that caliber at those speeds. I'm thinking something around 145 grs. would be about right. That's halfway between the 125 gr. .357 and the 165 gr. JHP I'm running in my .44 magnum. Basically the 125 gr. .357 needs to be scaled up to those calibers.

I remain set on full power rifle-like loads because I know there are thousands of Michael Platt-tough criminals lifting weights in american prisons right now looking forward to their release and the resumption of their criminal careers.

 

[BillCa]

There is a need for midrange self defense loads in the .44 and .41 magnum since folks want them, but the area they totally ignore is full house self defense barn burners, like the 125 gr. .357, for those of us that train up to that level and aspire to deal in that kind of power.

There are several loads that live up to (and exceed) what you're discussing. The Silvertip 175g/1250fps, several Cor-Bon 170-180gr loads @1300 fps, etc. It's not the full-throttle defense loads that are lacking, it's the moderate ones.

Shooting a 200-220gr bullet at around 900-1000 fps gets you up to 490 ft-lbs. Coupled with a large hole I think that's persuasive. Plus you've minimized the recoil to allow a fast follow-up shot if it's necessary.

Add to it, that in an urban area, a heavy bullet moving > 1250 fps can go a long way and penetrate a lot of things if you miss. That's a worry we could do without.

 

[Jellybean]

I wonder how much of that stuff I have out in the freezer?

I think I have a few boxes of Speers 180 gr. UCHP bullets for the .41AE. Which, relative to flop shanks post, S&W made me mad when they pushed their .40S&W idea on the LE market when we had something better already. And, had it been used, we would have had all kinds of light weight .41 cal bullets on the market.

Hornady had listed a 180 gr. XTP bullet for the .41 long ago, I don't think I ever found any of it though.

 

[38-44HD45]

Great thread! The only problem with those 170-175 gr. loads in .41 is that they shoot way below POA in my Model 58, which is regulated for 210 gr. bullets. I wish Speer would make a 210gr. Gold Dot, either in loaded ammo or as a component, that would expand at 850-950 fps.; something like a .410 version of their 200gr. .429 bullet that works so well in .44 Special and Short Barrel magnum loads. Nobody presently builds a 210 gr. .41 bullet that will expand at moderate velocities.

 

[flop-shank]

There are several loads that live up to (and exceed) what you're discussing. The Silvertip 175g/1250fps, several Cor-Bon 170-180gr loads @1300 fps, etc. It's not the full-throttle defense loads that are lacking, it's the moderate ones.

Shooting a 200-220gr bullet at around 900-1000 fps gets you up to 490 ft-lbs. Coupled with a large hole I think that's persuasive. Plus you've minimized the recoil to allow a fast follow-up shot if it's necessary.

Add to it, that in an urban area, a heavy bullet moving > 1250 fps can go a long way and penetrate a lot of things if you miss. That's a worry we could do without.

There's nothing wrong with your thinking, Bill. My .44 is a heck of a handfull with full house loads and definately not for everyone.

You're right, as far as traditional handgun loads go, the midrange .44 spls. are nothing to scoff at. I'll reexamine the caliber and the loads listed since I have a fallible memory and you've set off my curiousity. I still would like to see lighter bullets yet so as to get more rifle-like action from the cartridge (and minimize overpenetration as you have mentioned above) , but the way most shooters obsess over heavy bullets, that ain't gonna happen. The lighter hotrod loads available in .41 magnum are really midweights IMO.

Jellybean, I would put lots of cash on a bet that a hot loaded .41 XTP is a super overpenetrator. It would work well for hunting though.