Gun Trigger Modifications a No Go According to Article

[Rastoff]

...if I was involved in a shoot I would be very care full saying anything without a attorney present .

This is every bit as important as what firearm or ammunition you use, and FAR more important than whether you have a four or an eighteen pound trigger.

I completely agree with these two.

The advice I give in my CCW class is to say this, "I would like to help, but I'm a little stressed out considering the situation. I'd just like to wait to calm down a little and talk to a lawyer." This is reasonable and doesn't give anything up. Neither does it make you look like you don't want to cooperate.

Any modification to the gun will be the least of your concerns.

 

[Kifaru]

The chances of "suffering negative consequences" from defending yourself with a firearm AT ALL are vastly higher than that. Ask George Zimmerman.

Given your situation, why would you carry a gun?

I already answered that question: "...because of who I am and the community in which I live..." My family has been in this area since before this area even had statehood. Maybe you can tell me of a better place to live.

Obviously, a firearm is the absolute last resort in my case (hopefully in everyone's case). I carry pepper spray. I've taken various martial arts since I was 5 years old. And despite being well past middle age and having had two major surgeries in the past 3 years, I can still deadlift twice my body weight--for reps. And yes, I take at least 1 firearms training class a year, and I practice a couple times a month. I put in the work every single day of my life. And you better believe I have a lawyer I can trust.

I'm doing everything I can to be the winner in a violent confrontation, both during and after. But I know that's still no guarantee--not even close. But does that mean I shouldn't even try?

 

[cmort666]

I already answered that question: "...because of who I am and the community in which I live..." My family has been in this area since before this area even had statehood. Maybe you can tell me of a better place to live.

It depends. Where do you live? There might be a LOT of better places. There might not. Can't tell you without knowing.

But to reiterate, if you're so afraid of a frivolous prosecution for having a non-stock handgun in a self-defense prosecution, why risk a much GREATER likelihood of a frivolous prosecution for defending yourself with a gun AT ALL? Of course you could face prosecution for defending yourself with pepper spray or even your bare hands.

Why not just be the sort of supine, willing victim that Bloomberg and Brady want, and just not defend yourself AT ALL? You won't have to worry about getting sued then.

 

[shouldazagged]

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

I have only the most minor alterations to my carry gun (a DAO revolver)--orange sight insert, trigger face smoothed, very light polishing of internals. No lightening of the trigger pull. I'll chance it.

My choice. You make yours--I don't feel a pressing need to be right.

 

[cmort666]

No lightening of the trigger pull.

[Within reason] the trigger doesn't need to be light, but it does need to be smooth. When I got my first Glock (a 22), it was neither. I didn't notice that it had that utterly wretched "NY trigger".

I couldn't hit a thing with it, and took it to a gunsmith to have the abominable trigger removed. Subsequently, I learned how to disassemble the trigger mechanism and installed 3lb. Ghost triggers on that gun and a Glock 19, as well as do the "$0.25 trigger job". Both guns now have safe, smooth triggers.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I couldn't hit a thing with it, and took it to a gunsmith to have the abominable trigger removed. Subsequently, I learned how to disassemble the trigger mechanism and installed 3lb. Ghost triggers on that gun and a Glock 19, as well as do the "$0.25 trigger job". Both guns now have safe, smooth triggers.

I've never been in court, but Mas Ayoob makes a career of it. What you describe above I have read him explain can result in something similar to the below. (My words not his below).

Prosecutor - So you admit you are incompetent to handle a gun that law enforcement and security personell regularly qualify with.

Juror thinking to him/herself.... I shoot my gun without a special trigger just fine. Maybe this defendant is incompetent as the prosecutor describes, and he admits to running around with something called "ghost triggers" on his guns. Sounds like someone looking for trouble.

This is the type of thing you open yourself up to. Whether it ultimately makes a difference in case outcome is another matter, and probably won't, but it may require a lot more money hiring experts like Mas Ayoob to correct a zealous prosecutor and convince the jury otherwise.

 

[LittleLebowski]

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[southcoast]

Still waiting on someone to cite a case where someone got burned because of a trigger mod.

There was the one case my buddy's friend wrote about some time ago with the unicorn, the black helicopter, and . . . Oh never mind.

 

[southcoast]

Still waiting on someone to cite a case where someone got burned because of a trigger mod.

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[ChattanoogaPhil]

I talked to a few people I know about it, and one guy in particular echoed cmort666's opinion. Basically, the "How can it be a bad modification if it gives me greater control and accuracy?" I'm sure there are many out there that feel that this is oversimplifying (and yes I know no issue can ever be broken down to one statement) but this simple idea was extremely logical to me.

Someone might argue that with a lighter trigger, I'm gonna hit better, so therefore it comes under your thing it's safer for the bystanders. Actually, no, it fails to pass another legal test called the doctrine of competing harms. History tells us that light triggers are so often associated with accidental shooting tragedies, that trying to say "Well, I did it for safety," just is not going to pass muster. It doesn't pass the balance test.

So what I tell folks is, nothing lighter than "factory spec" in the trigger. Certainly make your trigger smooth, I've never seen anyone accused of having too-smooth a trigger pull, in 31 years as an expert witness, and 39 years of teaching this stuff, and 40 years of writing about it. But what I have seen again and again, is that the trigger is too light, and therefore reckless and negligent, and guilt-producing, and culpability-producing.

The Massad Ayoob Chronicles, Part V - The Truth About Guns

 

[CoMF]

I look at it this way... Likely as not, the average juror isn't going to understand how firearms operate. We may know that our modifications don't necessarily turn our chosen sidearm into something so dangerous that it discharges itself if you so much as look at it funny, but I'm not entirely confident that the jury box is going to be filled with enough "gun people" to acquit a defendant in spite of emotion-based arguments from the prosecutor. That, and Mas Ayoob has never struck me as being "Chicken Little" when it comes to this particular subject.

It all boils down to the old adage that "you pays your money and you takes your chances." If you find trigger modifications to be an acceptable risk or, better yet, have an affirmative defense for it (e.g. a physical hanidcap), more power to you. Personally, I try not to leave things to chance if I can help it. All my triggers are box stock or, in the case of my own EDC, slightly heavier than stock. In the case of the latter, though, it's more for ignition reliability than perceived liability.

 

[LittleLebowski]

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[southcoast]

I look at it this way... Likely as not, the average juror isn't going to understand how firearms operate. We may know that our modifications don't necessarily turn our chosen sidearm into something so dangerous that it discharges itself if you so much as look at it funny, but I'm not entirely confident that the jury box is going to be filled with enough "gun people" to acquit a defendant in spite of emotion-based arguments from the prosecutor. That, and Mas Ayoob has never struck me as being "Chicken Little" when it comes to this particular subject.

It all boils down to the old adage that "you pays your money and you takes your chances." If you find trigger modifications to be an acceptable risk or, better yet, have an affirmative defense for it (e.g. a physical hanidcap), more power to you. Personally, I try not to leave things to chance if I can help it. All my triggers are box stock or, in the case of my own EDC, slightly heavier than stock. In the case of the latter, though, it's more for ignition reliability than perceived liability.

Apparently you will likely find more jurors who are knowledgeable about guns that you will find gun owners who are knowledgeable of actual law and legal proceedings. The OP asked about modifications in a CCW situation and not Law enforcement officials. Only during an actual self defense situation should a CCW weapon be fired. In those cases modifications are legally irrelevant period. Neither Ayoob nor any other self proclaimed expert will give you an actual, non speculative case, to the contrary. If it ever happens, I will personally handle the appeal gratis.

 

[4896worker]

Hope it is not off the subject but if we are talking about litigation after the shoot . Something I have seen. here i the left coast is if in heat of the moment during the confrontation a racial slur is used you just have created a hate crime. And the media and DA will jump on that with both feat . It has also lead to the incident being looked at by the Feds .

 

[southcoast]

Hope it is not off the subject but if we are talking about litigation after the shoot . Something I have seen. here i the left coast is if in heat of the moment during the confrontation a racial slur is used you just have created a hate crime. And the media and DA will jump on that with both feat . It has also lead to the incident being looked at by the Feds .

Wow! I have never seen a CCW self defense weapon modified to shoot racial slurs rather than bullets. Who does one send their weapon to for those modifications?

 

[MOONDAWG]

Opinions are like rectums, everybody's got one; so here's mine...

The outcome has a lot to do with what part of the country you live in and the general prevailing political atmosphere.

In my area of the "Deep South" in all the cases I've been involved in over the last 44 years the number one issue was "justification" period.

The type of gun or ammo used or modification on either have never been an issue.

But this is "NOT" the case universally. What passes muster here may not in N.Y., N.J. or California.

 

[Waywatcher]

Still waiting on someone to cite a case where someone got burned because of a trigger mod.

Want to be a test case?

Let's say you're right. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it's impossible. A good example on a concealed carry forum is how many people here carry a gun because they were attacked first and didn't have one? Preparing for something that could happen, even if it hasn't happened, is not unreasonable.

Standard triggers work fine; practice is more important than equipment.

 

[southcoast]

Want to be a test case?

Let's say you're right. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it's impossible. A good example on a concealed carry forum is how many people here carry a gun because they were attacked first and didn't have one? Preparing for something one that could happen, even if it hasn't happened, is not unreasonable.

Standard triggers work fine; practice is more important than equipment.

Not a good example. Whether or not a member of the forum carries because they were previously attacked and did not have a weapon, we all agree this has happened to someone and can easily cite actual case. No one period, whether they are a member of the forum or not, has ever had a weapon modification become a legally relevant issue in a "good shoot" self defense situation. If so, we could likewise easily cite such occurrence.

 

[cmort666]

Prosecutor - So you admit you are incompetent to handle a gun that law enforcement and security personell regularly qualify with.

On cross, my lawyer has me read a VERY long list of bystanders shot by NYPD cops carrying those guns with those triggers.

The prosecutor runs from the courtroom, crying like a little girl.

And we laugh and laugh...

 

[Fastbolt]

I'd not think to start making any assumptions about what one or another local or regional crime lab might, or might not, do (or be able to do) with any specific firearm used in an incident in a potential criminal case.

Nor would I care to start assuming what some paid expert might want to do in the way of examination of a firearm in some civil case (where the gun may still be in evidence and subject to examination). Private 'expert' examination? A representative from a gun company asked to examine it?

I'd also not dismiss out of hand the possibility that some experienced LE agency firearms armorer might be asked to examine a firearm involved in a criminal case. Not uncommon for a cop - (who is an experienced firearms instructor and/or factory trained armorer, or maybe even one who is also a gunsmith) - to become accepted as an expert witness in one or another court, and perhaps be asked to lend his/her experience and qualified expertise to examining a firearm.

Hey, I've heard an occasional gun company armorer instructor (meaning in more than one armorer class) caution armorers about making unauthorized modifications in a firearm which might, for whatever legal reason, later be examined by someone from the company.

We were warned that unauthorized (other than taught, etc) modifications, which changed the gun to a condition other than as originally manufactured & assembled, would probably be identified as such by a factory representative (for example, if called to examine the gun under subpoena, etc). How that might be accepted by some juror, in either a criminal or civil case, might be a headache some folks would wish to avoid. Might be a costly issue to overcome, too, when it comes to billable hours and legal fees (other experts, etc).

Now, I thought the article by Marty Hayes seemed pretty reasonable and objective.

His background and experience would seem to make his observations, opinions and thoughts of some interest, at least to me.

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