Gunsmiths Please Help!

[keithpip]

I was hoping to get started in hobby gunsmithing. I intend on working on my own Smith & Wesson revolvers. One in particular, a pre-war heavy duty, needs attention. There seems to be excessive cylinder play, both end shake and rotational. I don’t plan on performing major surgery like changing out barrels etc, just “tightening up”. My problem is that I don’t know what tools I’ll need to do this work. The only tool I currently have is a S&W specific screwdriver. It has four different bits for Smith revolver screws. I also bought a copy of the Kuhnhausen shop manual. It’s packed with information but I don’t find it easy to follow. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[offrdmania]

I like the George Nonte Pistolsmithing book as a companion manual. Much easier to follow IMO. You can find copies on Amazon and eBay quite cheap.
All I can say is, go slow, take your time and read a lot before tackling a repair.

https://archive.org/details/pistolsmithing0000nont/mode/2up

 

[CalifEd]

And pictures along the way.
Plenty of pictures....

 

[dfariswheel]

No book or manual is better then the Kuhnhausen Shop manual because that's the way the S&W factory does it.
There's none of the usual "expedient" jackleg techniques like heating and bending, soldering, or making parts seen in other works.

You can't just read the manual, you have to actively study it.
Kuhnhausen thought his students would be smart enough to read the information properly without large red arrows pointing to things.
Just sit down with a S&W and the manual and look at the gun as you study the manual. It'll start making sense.

S&W's are not all that complicated.
If you have trouble I recommend staying away from working on an older Colt revolver.

For tools, everyone will have different ideas, but the screwdriver set, and a good small ceramic stone should enable you to do most of what you say you want.
Notice that the manual doesn't show or discuss much in the way of tools for small work.
Critical "tools" are a good magnifier visor and a good bench light.
You can't do what you can't see.

 

[JwesleyN]

I got that book a long time ago. Some good info and some bad. George used a hammer handle through the frame of a revolver to remove a barrel.

 

[bigggbbruce]

First thing to learn is to correctly evaluate the condition of the arm before proceeding with any work.

 

[Vtgw938]

A hammer or two for peening and of course some hunks of lead. If you can find a pic or list of the old S&W armorers kit that is a good place to start.

 

[dfariswheel]

I got that book a long time ago. Some good info and some bad. George used a hammer handle through the frame of a revolver to remove a barrel.

That's what's wrong with the old time gunsmithing books.
Their idea was .."Get it to work...somehow".

That's why most of the books are lots of heating and bending, soldering, making parts, and using expedient tools because they didn't have a source of good tooling, or couldn't make their own.
Thus, the hammer handle through the frame, which often resulted in a bend or cracked frame.
They did a lot of parts making because factory new parts were largely not available.

The Kuhnhausen Shop Manuals are the best because Kuhnhausen trained gunsmiths for the factories and he taught doing it the factory way, which was to restore a gun to factory specs.
Do the things the old books show and the owner will sue your butt for ruining the gun.

 

[OldGuyGunsmith]

Get the proper tools.. Brownells still sells some for revolvers.. Don't work on Colt DAs unless you are very familiar with the way they work. You can easily get into deep water with no way back. There are very few reliable DA Colt mechanics left in the US. Bowen Classic arms may recommend someone or maybe Turnbull Restoration. S&Ws are not too bad. Pretty intuitive..

 

[WR Moore]

I'd have to walk down several flights of stairs to find Nonte's book. IIRC, the best thing about it was the page where it had the drawings and specs for revolver barrel threads. Much of the rest of it should have a "DON'T DO THIS AT HOME" at the start of every chapter.

Get Kunhausen's book. Overall, good advice, but the factory method of curing end shake has issues of it's own. End shake is better cured with shims inside a CLEAN cylinder center bore. Rotational issues are usually cured with a new cylinder stop and spring, maybe also needing a slightly wider hand.

 

[mogwan]

I was hoping to get started in hobby gunsmithing. I intend on working on my own Smith & Wesson revolvers. One in particular, a pre-war heavy duty, needs attention. There seems to be excessive cylinder play, both end shake and rotational. I don’t plan on performing major surgery like changing out barrels etc, just “tightening up”. My problem is that I don’t know what tools I’ll need to do this work. The only tool I currently have is a S&W specific screwdriver. It has four different bits for Smith revolver screws. I also bought a copy of the Kuhnhausen shop manual. It’s packed with information but I don’t find it easy to follow. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Keith, if you're talking about the four Brownell Hex tips in flat for S&W, hex, torx, etc. be aware that the bits are a bit over/undersize and should be 'dressed' with a stone to get them the 'exact size' where the fit-especially with flat, hollow ground screwdriver bits are near perfect as you can fit them. Hopefully you have some 'old' (pre-mim) screws to use for fitting. I've heard that all the replacement screws- sideplate, crane screws, etc. as originally forged-machined before the spread of mim are pretty much gone. You can try the usual used gun parts companies but don't expect new in the bag parts. you may want to get a screwdriverblade opening file to clean up originals and also teach yourself how to refurb them. remember, if working with blue screws, depending on the metal and the era, the colours will be somewhat different as mim doesn't take cold blue like the original screws...and if you're gonna do this commercially,ans you accidentally 'bubba' a tight screw, you're prob gonna need some originals. I keep about 20 original side plate screws in both blue and nickel. just to have 'em when I need them. Sadly, the factory does more 'assembling' than fitting these days and the 'custom shop ain't like it used to be... Rule #1- DON'T buy cheap tools! a scratch demo a poor fitting tool on a clients gun will ruin your and the owner's day. For screwdrivers, Grace drivers with the wooden handles new veery good, Marvel Jigs for stoning sears are up yjere too. I don't really like 'Real Avid' or Wheeler, to me they are sorta like 'prosumer' tools esp. when they break. If you need punches, try to find the olde Starrett punches made before they were sold 12-18 months ago. eBay 2nd hand =- take a look there, I've found some starretts in real good condition. don't buy cheap Allen wrenches etc. you'll only be buying them again in a year or two. and keep an eye out for a good vibe; at leasr 20 lb, German and British are good even if they're 50 yr old. Avoid Asian 'Cast metal ones'...

 

[2152hq]

Screw drivers, punches, drifts,,all sorts of hand tools can either be made, made from something else or found quite inexpensively with some searching.

Older screw drivers are usually under $1 each at garage sales and misc junk shops. Even the 'Antique Shops' will often have some along with wood chisels and other cabinet maker tools for sale.
I've found a lot of carving tools in those shops that were English made and probably 100yrs old.
Blade tips are often damaged from misuse or the kids playing with them. But reshaping and sharpening puts them back in play. Those last two efforts are something needed to be learned as well and you might as well practice on your own stuff.
Check the mfg'r on the item and buy the older USA or quality Euro made items. It may not look pretty, but the steel is better grade and HT is as well.

Lots of China made stuff around. Good for opening paint cans, but that's about it.

Old blade tips and points can easily be re-ground or filed to anything you want.
If you are in to actual making screwdrivers and other common use hand tools (which was a beginners course in most any gunsmithing school),,then start with tool steel and make them.
Not hard, but some labor involved,,maybe that's the hang up with a lot of people. You actually have to put some effort into it.
You will learn how to Heat Treat them for use as well. Something useful through out a gunsmithing lifetime.

Old worn, no long useful hand files can be made into perfectly good screwdrivers and the old round files into punches.
They are generally 1075 steel (spring steel) and can be ground and shaped to your desire. Handle made and attached by you of course.
HT like a real spring and draw temper back at around 750*F for a screwdriver. Less temp for a harder tool like a punch.
The screwdriver blade will be cut-able with a sharp file but they hold the strength needed for good work.

Learn how to use a file, there is a correct way and many wrong ways.
Wear magnification if you need it and even if you see clearly close up, a magnified view is very helpful when doing this sort of work.
Proper lighting as well,,and don't be in a hurry.

Yes I know,,stuff from the old gunsmithing books...

 

[steelslaver]

I had the exchangeable tip screwdriver. But, then I bought some older screw drivers with hard tips and used my belt grinder and a good file to make the tip profiles to fit gun screws.

 

[2152hq]

I just don't care for the interchangable tip screw drivers. But I know lots of people seem to like them.

They are a pain to work with changing tips all the time when working on stuff. Easier (for me anyway) to grab the appropriate screw driver from the 3 cans filled with them on the bench. You get to be able to know which is which by the different handle shapes and colors after a while. All second hand stuff from all over.
As MrSlaver says, grind or file the blade tip if you need to.

 

[WR Moore]

Revisiting this, depending upon how old and/or mistreated the gun is, checking yoke alignment (you need an alignment gauge) with the center pin hole in the breech should be a first step in treating rotational issues.

 

[Phenix]

Screw drivers, punches, drifts,,all sorts of hand tools can either be made, made from something else or found quite inexpensively with some searching.

Older screw drivers are usually under $1 each at garage sales and misc junk shops. Even the 'Antique Shops' will often have some along with wood chisels and other cabinet maker tools for sale.
I've found a lot of carving tools in those shops that were English made and probably 100yrs old.
Blade tips are often damaged from misuse or the kids playing with them. But reshaping and sharpening puts them back in play. Those last two efforts are something needed to be learned as well and you might as well practice on your own stuff.
Check the mfg'r on the item and buy the older USA or quality Euro made items. It may not look pretty, but the steel is better grade and HT is as well.

Lots of China made stuff around. Good for opening paint cans, but that's about it.

Old blade tips and points can easily be re-ground or filed to anything you want.
If you are in to actual making screwdrivers and other common use hand tools (which was a beginners course in most any gunsmithing school),,then start with tool steel and make them.
Not hard, but some labor involved,,maybe that's the hang up with a lot of people. You actually have to put some effort into it.
You will learn how to Heat Treat them for use as well. Something useful through out a gunsmithing lifetime.

Old worn, no long useful hand files can be made into perfectly good screwdrivers and the old round files into punches.
They are generally 1075 steel (spring steel) and can be ground and shaped to your desire. Handle made and attached by you of course.
HT like a real spring and draw temper back at around 750*F for a screwdriver. Less temp for a harder tool like a punch.
The screwdriver blade will be cut-able with a sharp file but they hold the strength needed for good work.

Learn how to use a file, there is a correct way and many wrong ways.
Wear magnification if you need it and even if you see clearly close up, a magnified view is very helpful when doing this sort of work.
Proper lighting as well,,and don't be in a hurry.

Yes I know,,stuff from the old gunsmithing books...

I consider a headband magnifier and really good lighting absolute musts for all kinds of detail work.

 

[2152hq]

I never mentioned a magnifier. Should have..!
I wear one (Optivisor) from the time I turn on the lights in the shop, till I quit and turn them and the radio off. #10 lens which I think is around 5x.
I use it for engraving as well as every other gunsmithing task.
It gets a little dicey when running the lathe or mill as I have to get so close to see anything, but so far in 50+yrs it hasn't been ripped from my head and chewed to pieces.

 

[Alk8944]

Kuhnhausen's book is THE source for S&W revolver gunsmithing information.If you have trouble understanding it then read and re-read the book until you do understand! If this is too much for you then forget working on your guns, there is much more to it than just having the right tools. You need to understand how to use them.