Guy switches from .45 to 9mm after gunfight

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I'm hardly an expert in the field of ballistics. I'm a Joe who carries a gun every single day and gets paid for it.

I've done as much research as I can, and I shoot a 9mm. A Glock 34 and a Glock 26 for a backup gun. With modern premium JHP ammo, research I've found indicates that there's little enough difference between the 9mm, .40, and .45 that it won't matter. I can shoot faster, more accurately with the 9mm.

As the only guy in my agency NOT carrying the .40, I always hear guff from the other guys about it. Such was the case last week when we did our yearly qualification. Just like every other time, the talking stopped when we walked to the targets. I fired my rounds faster AND more accurately than any other shooter on the line. Some others were doing all they could to hit the silhouette target within the scoring area in time, while I was practicing failure drills (2 chest and 1 head) while operating within the same time limit. In a gunfight, I know that that means something.

 

[policerevolvercollector]

In 29 years in law enforcement, I've seen far more shootings that I care to remember. I can say this with a reasonable degree of certainty: Ballistics are overrated. I have worked cases where a single .22LR ended someone's life and another where a gut shot from a .357 Magnum didn't slow the guy down. Shot placement is key & dead is dead no matter what velocity the projectile is travelling or what the bullet diameter is.......

I have many handguns and ,even though I'm allowed some choice in the matter, I carry my issued Glock 22 .40 caliber because I have practiced with it until I learned how to shoot it. No frills. Just reliable and accurate. It was well used when I got it (built in '97,I think.) with countless rounds through it. Every once and a while, I get the urge to carry something else for variety (or independence) sake. But, the Glock 22 always finds its'way back into my duty holster.

Having said all that, I'm not stupid. I have a back up gun in my pocket & a 12 gauge in the trunk of the car.....

 

[Marshall 357]

I have never been in a gun fight or shot at.. I shoot well at the range,but paper targets don't move or shoot back,shooting under stress with someone trying to kill you is something I think no one is 100% ready for..the officer lived to tell his story and went home to his family.. that's what counts...he might feel more comfortable with a pistol with more rounds..which is never a bad idea.

 

[chud333]

I believe and adhere to this simple test for my SD handgun.
Hold in your hand one round of the caliber/calibers you are considering
to use. If you have done any reloading and know just a little about ballistics
and bullet energy this tells me whether or not i want to
trust my life to this particular round or not.
Nothing beats hitting what you are shooting at however.
Shoot what you shoot best.
IMHO bigger is always better.

Chuck

 

[Checkman]

I carry the Glock 19. Never been in a firefight. I shoot it well.Don't like the Glock 21 for the grip is too big for my hands. I am one of seven officers with my agency who carry the G19 instead of the G21. Once again I shoot the G19 well. That's it.

 

[lonejacklarry]

I did not get this way because I shoot a .45acp but rather I practice with the .45acp.

Yes I own .45s but I figured out a long time ago that it isn't the round or the gun that wins the fight, it's the PERSON behind it!
Dale

What they said!

 

[MOONDAWG]

After a 10 year run (83-93) with the .45 ACP my agency switched to the 9 mm in Beretta & SIG forms.

Quarterly qualification's showed an increase from 15% "Expert" scores to 31%.

Street performance did not suffer in the least and even the bean counters were happy.

 

[Erich]

If I'm reading you right, the 40 doesn't work for you because you can't effect a significant performance (Velocity) improvement by reloading. The barrier is caused by factory loads that are already at the limits. I can't get a decent velocity boost either, but I can get a reduction in muzzle flash in 40 and 357Sig with no deterioration in velocity. This is a real help for a newbe shooter that wants to move up to full house loads. I've also gotten the financial advantage by loading plated bullets.
I understand your decision. I made my decisions based in the needs of my students. I just thought that you found an angle that applied to me.
I never found it to be an issue (same with the .357 SIG). But its street performance doesn't appear in any way different from 9 or .45 (unlike the .357 SIG's, which I'm told has better barrier-defeating performance than the others and thus is appropriate for folks needing such), and it holds fewer than the 9, and it's trickier to load than the .45 (but costs as much retail) . . .

I'm afraid you're not reading me right at all and you don't understand my decision: I don't want to hotrod the .40, and have never tried to do so.

My issue is that the .40 is a tricky cartridge to reload, and I'm certainly at least a journeyman handloader (having handloaded since the mid-'80s). Moderate loads with more than one powder show profound velocity differences (and presumably pressure differences) based on temperature changes. This is alarming, and shows how close to the edge the round is running. Because the .40 offers no performance advantage whatsoever over the 9 (unless you consider fewer rounds on board an advantage ), my feel is that it's not worth my time.

However, an adequately detailed discussion of the topic would require a lot more time than I'm able to devote right now, so - while I appreciate your interest in why I do what I do - it's probably best that you just do what you'd like based on your own circumstances.

 

[Erich]

Was there anything about those cases that influenced you?

Well, again, the fact that the only thing that seems to guarantee cessation of aggressive action (when discussing use of a handgun - rifles and shotguns are different) is direct damage of certain vitals (brain/spinal cord/heart/aorta). And the fact that any one of these rounds is capable of the shot-placement and penetration necessary to effect such. So . . . a valid question is - which round is most capable of delivering more hits to those vitals in a given interaction? Which is more controllable? Which has more in the gun?

Here's something else that I found profoundly interesting: a Big Name Pathologist (hired as an expert on one of our cases) told me that - after thousands of autopsies of handgun killings - he remains unable to tell whether the gun used was a .38, .357, 9mm, .40, or .45 from the wound tracks left behind (it was actually an issue in our case - who fired the fatal shot?).

So I kinda chuckle at the opinions of amateur experts that one handgun round is some sort of death ray and another will be deflected by tinfoil.

Shot placement is king; adequate penetration is queen; everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

​

 

[wfsubking]

In southern Arizona I carry a three inch 317 alloy eight shot 22 revolver with laser grips. It has 8 one shot kills. Two rabbits,2 rattlers,coyote in trap,1 wounded deer,1 rabid skunk and a stray tomcat. Two shots in the dark. I carry this gun religiously and feel confident even in South Tucson at night.

 

[Erich]

Darn it, wfsubking; now you've got me thinking about El Güero Canelo!

 

[sigp220.45]

Wow, this old thread lives again!

Lots of good intelligent discussion here, too.

I made this observation in another thread, but it seems to fit here, too. I've worked violent crime on Indian reservations for most of my career. Real rezs, not the casino kind. Most of our murder weapons are knives, axes, fists, feet, gravity, and whatever else is handy. Quite a few are shootings, though.

A while ago some fellow Indian Country guys and I were comparing notes, and discovered that one type of firearm had proven to be 100 percent effective in rendering someone dead. Keep in mind we also work non-fatal shootings, too, so its not like we don't see a ton of those, too.

Every shooting with a .22 rifle had proved fatal. I had the closest thing to a non-fatal - a guy drove past the War Bonnet bar on the Blackfeet rez and shot up the front. A guy was just lifting a shot glass to his lips and a round hit that, causing glass to cut his lip. Since the bullet didn't hit him, I didn't count that one.

All the others resulted in me standing over a rapidly cooling corpse. Usually there were multiple hits to the torso. Of course many of these were straight up murders, not self defense situations, but those folks were still DRT. I can't remember that any of them continued doing whatever caused them to get shot after those little bullets started making entry.

I'm sure plenty of cops have seen plenty of shootings that run contrary to this. But in our little group, the ubiquitous Marlin Model 60 will get the job done.

 

[Erich]

Yeah, multiple .22 hits from a rifle seem to really work - one of those little buggers is going to hit "the good stuff."

And there's a lesson there - with the difficulties of targeting those crucial vitals given a moving aggressor, isn't it a good idea to have multiple tries for the necessary hit? So what platform gives you the best ability to make those multiple targeted launches?

BTW, another DRT rifle (from the cases I've worked) is the SKS - holy smokes, but those things are effective.

 

[ozo]

Whew !!
I'm glad we got this topic cleared up....again.

 

[TheYoungblood]

Prediction? Next year another caliber vesus caliber thread.

 

[Smithsrevenge]

This is from yesterday.



This is not slow shooting. This is rapid fire. at 15 yards

If I can do this with 24 rounds in .40 cal , Aimed rapid fire ......with a reload...point shooting at . With 1 flier.

Sadly this thread does not make me very confident in todays LE force lol

Old guys, were taught quality over quantity, trained on a .357 highway patrolmen. Only 6 rounds to get the job done. While I am not old.......a mere 28. I was taught by Old timers from the first gun I ever shot.

Does it seem to anyone else that the NEW Law Enforcement is taught that spray and prey is the way to go in a lethal force encounter?

Just sayin....

 

[venomballistics]

This is from yesterday.

View attachment 134305

This is not slow shooting. This is rapid fire. at 15 yards

If I can do this with 24 rounds in .40 cal , Aimed rapid fire ......with a reload...point shooting at . With 1 flier.

Sadly this thread does not make me very confident in todays LE force lol

Old guys, were taught quality over quantity, trained on a .357 highway patrolmen. Only 6 rounds to get the job done. While I am not old.......a mere 28. I was taught by Old timers from the first gun I ever shot.

Does it seem to anyone else that the NEW Law Enforcement is taught that spray and prey is the way to go in a lethal force encounter?

Just sayin....

hmmmm ... "the spray and pray way of today" .... kinda has a ring to it

 

[lonejacklarry]

Does it seem to anyone else that the NEW Law Enforcement is taught that spray and prey is the way to go in a lethal force encounter? Just sayin....

I am an OLD LE person and was not taught "spray and pray as the way to go in a lethal force encounter" in 1971. Then, I was a newly created civilian after 2+ years in the US Army and an 11B light weapons infantryman, it was an interesting transition from an M60 in a helicopter to a S&W Model 15 in the police academy. In fairness, the tracers helped a lot but I learned trigger control w/ the PD.

More to the point, my older son is a 7 year police officer and, according to him, he was never taught the "spray and pray" method either. I would be curious as to which agencies teach that system in their firearms training curriculum.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I am an OLD LE person and was not taught "spray and pray as the way to go in a lethal force encounter" in 1971. Then, I was a newly created civilian after 2+ years in the US Army and an 11B light weapons infantryman, it was an interesting transition from an M60 in a helicopter to a S&W Model 15 in the police academy. In fairness, the tracers helped a lot but I learned trigger control w/ the PD.

More to the point, my older son is a 7 year police officer and, according to him, he was never taught the "spray and pray" method either. I would be curious as to which agencies teach that system in their firearms training curriculum.

I also was not taught "spray and pray" now was any other officer I've met. I've noticed those that tend to bag on cops for their "spray and pray" response have never heard a round coming back uprange from close by. That has a tendency to mess with your aim.

I'm sure the S&W Forum (like many other forums) has it's share of steely-eyed killers who would shoot the bad guy through his right eye with one round while ignoring those incoming rounds.

 

[lonejacklarry]

I'm sure the S&W Forum (like many other forums) has it's share of steely-eyed killers who would shoot the bad guy through his right eye with one round while ignoring those incoming rounds.

I'm not your guy! I usually got a really dry mouth, tunnel vision, a gurgling in my innards, and a little difficulty breathing when the plexiglass exploded in a shower of little sharp pieces or I could hear the sound of a breaking pencil as the round sailed over my head. Nope, you can just call me a sissy!

Oh, yeah...just sayin'