Instructor meets idiot.

Kelly Green

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My wife and I are good friends with a lady who is a U.S. Army veteran (Afghanistan), a CHL instructor, NRA certified firearms instructor and a fine competitive shooter. She told us a story this past weekend that has me rethinking gun ownership and wondering if some people should not own a gun, much less be allowed to carry a handgun or even be granted a CHL.

I will try to tell her story as she told it to us. Her story:

I was working in the shop last month when a young woman, early twenties, came in and inquired about our CHL classes. As with all perspective CHL students, I asked a few preliminary questions. Did she have experience with firearms? She had absolutely none. Did she own a gun? I thought I knew the answer to that one but she surprised me when she replied yes, a Glock 26. I asked, “why a Glock”, and she replied that her boyfriend had picked it out. He thought that carrying a Glock would be really cool. Uh oh, alarm bell.

She had that way of speaking like a lot of young women of her generation, every answer sounded like a question. Short of that, she seemed pleasant enough.

We both agreed that before taking the CHL class, she needed to take a firearms training course and we set up a schedule.

We started our training with the basic rules of safety and progressed from there. When I began explaining and demonstrating the workings of the gun, I could sense that she had no mechanical aptitude what so ever—probably didn’t know how a can opener worked either but knew that it opened cans. I began slowing everything down and speaking as simply as possible.

Our next stop was the range. I explained “Rule One”: Always keep the muzzle pointed down range. If you turn away form the target the gun stays on the bench, muzzle pointed down range. She gave me an OK. I loaded the magazine with three rounds, and put a tight group of three on paper. The model 26 is a nice shooter with a good trigger, not to heavy, with a short pull but it does have heavy recoil. Probably not the best gun for a beginner. I handed the gun to her.

Now it was her turn. I told her to load the magazine. When she tried to shove the rounds in backward I stopped her. More instruction (reinstruction) needed. Once we got that resolved and the gun loaded, I found that she had a problem keeping her finger off the trigger. More instruction. I explained that she should rest her trigger finger along the pistol’s slide. The girl looked at me and replied in all seriousness, “If I keep my trigger finger on the slide then what finger do I use to shoot the gun?” I should have stopped right there but, I continued on.

I stood behind her while she fired her first live round. The girl managed to hit paper and became so excited that she turned around, gun in hand, finger on trigger and muzzle pointed at my chest. I saw my life flash before me. In reflex, I grabbed the gun around the slide with my hand and forced the muzzle off myself. This caused her to send a wild round ricocheting off the floor and into the back wall of the range. Because of the way I had grabbed it, the gun jammed. I took the gun from her, cleared it and emptied the magazine. Training was officially over. I was shaking and this woman was completely clueless.

At that moment, the range manager came running in. He took possession of the gun and we all went into his office. After listening to the story, he placed a nylon tie on the Glock, taped the magazine to the grip and gave it to her. He refunded her money and told her that he she was banned from his firing line.

As she was preparing to leave, I told her to forget the gun, that she would be safer with a canister of pepper spray. She replied, “Why would I need pepper spray when I have a gun?” I thought to myself, I have just met the stupidest person on the planet.

After the girl left, the reality of the situation hit me hard. I, the student or someone else could have been seriously injured or killed. From now on, if a student has no prior firearm experience, I will not allow a loaded magazine in a gun. It will be single shot only until the student proves he or she is capable of firearm safety.
 
I had a similar experience with a life long friend and his girlfriend. She had never fired a gun before and wanted to go to the desert with us to shoot. First round she cranked off she was so excited she hit the target. She spun around and I had a loaded Colt King Cobra pointed at my sternum with her finger firmly on the trigger. I was not pleased and let it be known in no uncertain terms. We made it through the drive home in silence and it ended my friendship with the guy I had been best buddies with since kindergarten.
 
These are the same people that should not be allowed to breed. They barely make in through each day yet we allow them to bare and raise children.
 
She's probably the President of an HOA somewhere: confident of herself and her ability to decide what's in the best interest of the neighborhood.

Isn't odd that some people have so much self confidence in the absence of any real ability? Our kids can't read billboards, but they have a well developed sense of self.

Head ache coming on.

Out
West
 
"From now on, if a student has no prior firearm experience, I will not allow a loaded magazine in a gun. It will be single shot only until the student proves he or she is capable of firearm safety."

That might be a good idea with every new student until you have the chance to observe them at the range.
 
"From now on, if a student has no prior firearm experience, I will not allow a loaded magazine in a gun. It will be single shot only until the student proves he or she is capable of firearm safety."

That might be a good idea with every new student until you have the chance to observe them at the range.

The best answer yet and I couldn't agree more.Remember Granddads single shot or your first BB gun?
Do not hand a novice a second chance with out seeing how their learning curve goes.Bad things can happen.
I hope we all learned something from this.
 
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It would seem that a percentage of the new gen types out there are incapable of recieving information. So sure they are of thier right to keep and hold on to thier idea's even if proved wrong. Perhaps this is how we wound up with the current administration in Washington?
 
You can tell people--but you can't tell them much. Not to mention the potential liability issues.
 
Well, let me take a contrarian view here. I think the young woman was poorly served by her boyfriend and the instructor. Some of y'all are making some broad generalizations based on very little information; mostly that she was a non-shooter and had been handed a weapon that many "experienced" people shoot themselves in the butt with. The instructor should never have handed a loaded glop to someone she figured couldn't use a can opener. She (the instructor) should have spent whatever time was needed in familiarization before actual live firing. If the instructor determined that the trainee just wasn't up to it, she should have told her so, and suggested that she get a simple to operate weapon like a double action revolver.

Based on what information is in the OP, I don't think we should automatically assume the young woman is an air-headed idiot. Ignorance isn't the same thing as stupidity.

Another thing while I'm ranting: I do not like this attitude at all--"has me rethinking gun ownership and wondering if some people should not own a gun, much less be allowed to carry a handgun or even be granted a CHL." Who are you going to put in charge of making those decisions? The government? The ATF, FBI, or some other Federal Agency, many of whom shoot themselves in the foot or in the butt with their glops? I think it is a pretty arrogant attitude.

I have been shooting 50 years plus, and I have taught a few people the basics. I absolutely would not hand a glop or even a 1911 to a brand new shooter. If he/she came to me with a semi, I would say, "Let me loan you a pistol for us to get started with," and we would shoot up a couple of boxes of .22 lr in my Model 63. I would then try to transition over to the semi.
 
I went to the range once with my girlfriend's brother. He said he knew what he was doing, but something told me he was full of it. I gave him a rather slow run down of how a Beretta 92FS worked. He approached the firing line and proceeds to do a double tap, one on the target, the other almost straight up in the air (its a good thing we were outside). I managed to talk the range master into not kicking us off the range, and it took alot of self control not to strangle him.
 
Doesn’t matter if it is a man or a woman, most kids in that general age group was raised with a sense of entailment, sadly truly believe they can do anything they wish without having to pay for their actions. I also believe that the media, movies and T.V. are in part to blame for so much careless gun handling.
 
Someone will surely chime in and cite 2A and aver this person has an absolute right to carry.

Oops, already posted. How sad. :mad:

Be safe.

Show me where I said anything about an absolute right. I did not, and I do not believe in an absolute 2nd Amendment right.

My point was that someone should not be denied the right based on some arbitrary measure of ability to handle a complicated platform, decided by people who are probably not competent to make that determination.

Here in backwards, dumb, rural Georgia, we pretty much give people the benefit of the doubt. In other words, they do not have to prove a specific need, or even to demonstrate competency to own or carry a firearm. We have a gun culture here, as long as you aren't a transplant in Atlanta, and we expect people to know how to handle a firearm. Most of those, and I include non-gun enthusiasts, do know how. Pass the background check, and achieving competency is up to you.

I realize that a citizen has to jump through hoops in your state to obtain a permit. As I recall, you have stated a time or two that you are glad to be in a such a "progressive" state. How sad.:rolleyes:
 
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What redlevel said in his first post. Any decent instructor will start with classroom instruction and dry fire before handing a loaded gun to a novice. If the woman could not safely dry fire the gun it would have prevented the near tragedy on the range. Safe gun handling is taught in a safe area before hitting the range with live ammo.
 
Wow that's really really scary and not that uncommon. I know I was going to one of the Popular local ranges. Will lets just say after watching a guy melt down throw his mags and gun I hadn't been back.

I think everyone has the right to own a firearm but should have basic training. I dont think a law should be past thought that would stop someone from owning a firearm with out training for the simple fact who's to say whats proficient training.
 
Ok, I am going to hit a lot of raw nerves right now.

The above examples is exactly why I am against any state laws that allow concealed weapons permits without proper instruction classes. States like AZ are trying to do the right thing by allowing anyone to carry but then they open up a world of potential problems by idiot gun owners.

Even with proper training, there will still be a lot of idiots carrying.
 
Now it was her turn. I told her to load the magazine. When she tried to shove the rounds in backward I stopped her. More instruction (reinstruction) needed. Once we got that resolved and the gun loaded, I found that she had a problem keeping her finger off the trigger. More instruction. I explained that she should rest her trigger finger along the pistol’s slide. The girl looked at me and replied in all seriousness, “If I keep my trigger finger on the slide then what finger do I use to shoot the gun?” I should have stopped right there but, I continued on.
QUOTE]

The instructor is the one who screwed up, she knew from the begining the girl was a ditz, then she lets her load up. I guess some people should not be instructors.
 
I have to agree that it is the instructor who should rethink what she's doing because the student isn't. Using a loaded semi-auto for training a person with no knowledge of handguns and "0" mechanical ability is going to lead to what happened or worse. How about some training video of what not to do? Some dry fire training and using a small caliber revolver with one round in it and see how things go (sounds like this could take all day).

Second, there are people that should not be armed. They just don't have the requisite KSA's to carry or use a firearm safely and this girl would be a prime candidate for the poster child of this program.
 
wondering if some people should not own a gun, much less be allowed to carry a handgun or even be granted a CHL
Some people shouldn't own guns. There are many things some people shouldn't be allowed to own or operate. It's not a gun rights issue it's about safety. The incompetent gun owners are often the ones involved in NDs and accidental shootings.

Many of us had at least some experience growing up. May have just transitioned from a BB gun to a .22 as in my case but it's a good start. With just a limited experience many can transition to other guns if they have an understanding of the new firearms operation. Others with no experience have the ability to understand operation, study gun handling, safely practice and do well by self teaching.

It would make sense for instructors to start complete newbies out using a single shot .22 rifle. Then evaluate to see if there's even an aptitude to become competent and progress from there. It's done in most marksmanship training programs.

The firearms industry, manufactures and retailers/FFLs have done a bang up job of increasing popularity, advertising and selling guns. Often to folks with no experience and in many case no idea how a gun operates. The industry's number one goal is profit by selling guns. There is a lack of advocating for a good low cost basic training for those who really need it.

...
 
One of the essential skills of being a good instructor is the ability to quickly asses your student and what it is that they seem to percieve.

When hosting the NRA Basic Pistol you have the students single load and fire for at least six rounds before moving to multiple rounds regardless of their level of experience.

More than once I have either been assigned such a student for a lot of one on one or had to assign a fellow instructor to do the same for the safety of the entire class.

In all of the classes I have either hosted or assisted, the instructor stands directly behind the student to prevent such mishaps from getting even close to happening.

Yes, as an instructor since 1987, I have had my share of students that were not up to speed, and have even sent several home, however I firmly believe that the problem could have been avoided by not progressing to another level or skill requirement until she had fully mastered the one you are working on. To me this is teaching 101...

Randy
 
We can all be comforted in the knowledge that out there, somewhere, is a woman carrying a loaded Glock in her pocketbook. Translate this to an automobile and imagine her, having never driven, walking into a dealership and driving out in a new T Bird. And at the accident scene, when asked by the officer for her license, the Glock falls out onto the highway. "Sorry officer, let me pick that up for you". Time for coffee.
 
I think she should have gotten another bf. :P Giving her a glock?

They have to learn to respect firearms before touching a gun.

Then they can learn how to handle a gun. The instructor should have used something like a starters pistol or don't put up a target. Then the student can concentrate on just learn handling both gun and recoil.

Accuracy can always come later.
 
Based on what information is in the OP, I don't think we should automatically assume the young woman is an air-headed idiot. Ignorance isn't the same thing as stupidity.
I don't think I agree. None of us were there but near as I can tell the student got proper instruction and did it wrong anyway. That's not the instructors fault. The instructor's only mistake was failing to recognize she had a hopeless idiot on her hands and putting an end to any lessons.

Bob
 
The problem with your statement is that I don't set the bar...mine or anyone else's. I just completed LEOSA training for the sixth (6th!) time. That's after being a LEO for 30.5 years.

Yes, classroom instruction preceded and followed range time. The instructors made it clear that if anyone showed they were not capable of proper and safe handling of their gun they would be removed from the training. Yes, according to them, people have been removed for safety violations and failure to qualify.

There were firearms instructors undergoing the training/qualifications. They didn't complain, either.

I am of the belief that one can learn new things at any age. Frankly, I have learned more than I ever thought possible from this very Forum.

States such as Arizona would have allowed this person to be walking their streets with a loaded gun. I suggest that would have been disastrous given the person's utter and abject failure during her instruction.

Some people should not be allowed to own/carry firearms.

Be safe.


Yep. That would be me.

You ever notice that people always want to set the bar at their own level? It's always someone else they think should be stopped, but not them.
 
Well, let me take a contrarian view here. I think the young woman was poorly served by her boyfriend and the instructor. Some of y'all are making some broad generalizations based on very little information; mostly that she was a non-shooter and had been handed a weapon that many "experienced" people shoot themselves in the butt with. The instructor should never have handed a loaded glop to someone she figured couldn't use a can opener. She (the instructor) should have spent whatever time was needed in familiarization before actual live firing. If the instructor determined that the trainee just wasn't up to it, she should have told her so, and suggested that she get a simple to operate weapon like a double action revolver.

Based on what information is in the OP, I don't think we should automatically assume the young woman is an air-headed idiot. Ignorance isn't the same thing as stupidity.

Another thing while I'm ranting: I do not like this attitude at all--"has me rethinking gun ownership and wondering if some people should not own a gun, much less be allowed to carry a handgun or even be granted a CHL." Who are you going to put in charge of making those decisions? The government? The ATF, FBI, or some other Federal Agency, many of whom shoot themselves in the foot or in the butt with their glops? I think it is a pretty arrogant attitude.

I have been shooting 50 years plus, and I have taught a few people the basics. I absolutely would not hand a glop or even a 1911 to a brand new shooter. If he/she came to me with a semi, I would say, "Let me loan you a pistol for us to get started with," and we would shoot up a couple of boxes of .22 lr in my Model 63. I would then try to transition over to the semi.

Spoken as a true instructor. The OP and this response post both have equally valuable lessons for us.

Asses the student's innate ability, experience, and aptitude and fit the training to meet their needs. Indeed, some should not own for their own safety, but I've seen many "unteachable" students learn very complicated skills with the right instruction.

All of us are different, and everyone needs tailored training for learning to take place.

I am a flight instructor, and believe me, I've seen the "Chuck Yeager's" with an uncanny ability to pick up flying as well as the "Chumley's" who need to take two steps forward and one step back all the way through. I've taught teenage girls up to 70+ year old men and everything in between. (For a real challenge, teach a doctor/lawyer/successful business person something, holy cow they can be difficult!). They key is to accurately asses the student's needs and bring the instruction to the level needed.

Great post Red
 
Very interesting thread!!! Sort of says it all doesn't it.....I appreciate hearing the views of those who obviously are gun lovers of all levels of experience. Having been in Law-enforcement most of my life I have seen what best can be described as incompetent gun handling..by those who have had no previous experience and those with years of experience. Now retired I work part time in a rather large gun shop....The rush for guns has somewhat amazed me...Buyers can be scary at times. I have had more guns pointed at me by far, working in the gun department than I ever had working 40 plus years in law enforcement..P.s, I have worked in big city ghettos. I have been a second amendment supporter for years, however I would like to see a certain amount of training before some folks can take a pistol home with them. The last couple of years has, for better or worse, put guns in more people's hand than ever before.....the one big area of concern is women in their 40's or 50's that have never owned a gun before...They almost always pass the NCI check and in this state that is all that is required....CCW permit is a different question and those that are going to carry or just want to have the right to carry generally get pretty good instruction. It is the home guns that leave you wondering sometimes...I know for gun people some of these gun handling goofs seem idiotic, but sell guns to the general public and you can see every thing possible. Remember there is no draft anymore, subsequently many in today's atmosphere have never been introduced to gun handling....Here in central Mo. kids are brought up with guns, many are far more knowledgeable about all facets of guns than I am...It is those who never even thought about gun ownership that can make you wonder.....do I know the answer No. As gun enthusiast we all need to try to instruct those who are new to guns the basics...How we do that is the question. Most gun accidents happen in the home, not by CCW holders. In fact the low amount of accidents by carry holders has surprised even the gun community. Must be a lesson there somewhere..I'll just let those with much more experience than I have figure it out, but figure it out is a must IMHO
 
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