Instructor meets idiot.

[Engine 21]

I have to agree that it is the instructor who should rethink what she's doing because the student isn't. Using a loaded semi-auto for training a person with no knowledge of handguns and "0" mechanical ability is going to lead to what happened or worse. How about some training video of what not to do? Some dry fire training and using a small caliber revolver with one round in it and see how things go (sounds like this could take all day).

Second, there are people that should not be armed. They just don't have the requisite KSA's to carry or use a firearm safely and this girl would be a prime candidate for the poster child of this program.

 

[number0009]

wondering if some people should not own a gun, much less be allowed to carry a handgun or even be granted a CHL

Some people shouldn't own guns. There are many things some people shouldn't be allowed to own or operate. It's not a gun rights issue it's about safety. The incompetent gun owners are often the ones involved in NDs and accidental shootings.

Many of us had at least some experience growing up. May have just transitioned from a BB gun to a .22 as in my case but it's a good start. With just a limited experience many can transition to other guns if they have an understanding of the new firearms operation. Others with no experience have the ability to understand operation, study gun handling, safely practice and do well by self teaching.

It would make sense for instructors to start complete newbies out using a single shot .22 rifle. Then evaluate to see if there's even an aptitude to become competent and progress from there. It's done in most marksmanship training programs.

The firearms industry, manufactures and retailers/FFLs have done a bang up job of increasing popularity, advertising and selling guns. Often to folks with no experience and in many case no idea how a gun operates. The industry's number one goal is profit by selling guns. There is a lack of advocating for a good low cost basic training for those who really need it.

...

 

[growr]

One of the essential skills of being a good instructor is the ability to quickly asses your student and what it is that they seem to percieve.

When hosting the NRA Basic Pistol you have the students single load and fire for at least six rounds before moving to multiple rounds regardless of their level of experience.

More than once I have either been assigned such a student for a lot of one on one or had to assign a fellow instructor to do the same for the safety of the entire class.

In all of the classes I have either hosted or assisted, the instructor stands directly behind the student to prevent such mishaps from getting even close to happening.

Yes, as an instructor since 1987, I have had my share of students that were not up to speed, and have even sent several home, however I firmly believe that the problem could have been avoided by not progressing to another level or skill requirement until she had fully mastered the one you are working on. To me this is teaching 101...

Randy

 

[CajunBass]

Someone will surely chime in and cite 2A and aver this person has an absolute right to carry.

Yep. That would be me.

You ever notice that people always want to set the bar at their own level? It's always someone else they think should be stopped, but not them.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

We can all be comforted in the knowledge that out there, somewhere, is a woman carrying a loaded Glock in her pocketbook. Translate this to an automobile and imagine her, having never driven, walking into a dealership and driving out in a new T Bird. And at the accident scene, when asked by the officer for her license, the Glock falls out onto the highway. "Sorry officer, let me pick that up for you". Time for coffee.

 

[quneur]

I think she should have gotten another bf. Giving her a glock?

They have to learn to respect firearms before touching a gun.

Then they can learn how to handle a gun. The instructor should have used something like a starters pistol or don't put up a target. Then the student can concentrate on just learn handling both gun and recoil.

Accuracy can always come later.

 

[bk43]

Based on what information is in the OP, I don't think we should automatically assume the young woman is an air-headed idiot. Ignorance isn't the same thing as stupidity.

I don't think I agree. None of us were there but near as I can tell the student got proper instruction and did it wrong anyway. That's not the instructors fault. The instructor's only mistake was failing to recognize she had a hopeless idiot on her hands and putting an end to any lessons.

Bob

 

[The Big D]

The problem with your statement is that I don't set the bar...mine or anyone else's. I just completed LEOSA training for the sixth (6th!) time. That's after being a LEO for 30.5 years.

Yes, classroom instruction preceded and followed range time. The instructors made it clear that if anyone showed they were not capable of proper and safe handling of their gun they would be removed from the training. Yes, according to them, people have been removed for safety violations and failure to qualify.

There were firearms instructors undergoing the training/qualifications. They didn't complain, either.

I am of the belief that one can learn new things at any age. Frankly, I have learned more than I ever thought possible from this very Forum.

States such as Arizona would have allowed this person to be walking their streets with a loaded gun. I suggest that would have been disastrous given the person's utter and abject failure during her instruction.

Some people should not be allowed to own/carry firearms.

Be safe.

Yep. That would be me.

You ever notice that people always want to set the bar at their own level? It's always someone else they think should be stopped, but not them.

 

[dcxplant]

Well, let me take a contrarian view here. I think the young woman was poorly served by her boyfriend and the instructor. Some of y'all are making some broad generalizations based on very little information; mostly that she was a non-shooter and had been handed a weapon that many "experienced" people shoot themselves in the butt with. The instructor should never have handed a loaded glop to someone she figured couldn't use a can opener. She (the instructor) should have spent whatever time was needed in familiarization before actual live firing. If the instructor determined that the trainee just wasn't up to it, she should have told her so, and suggested that she get a simple to operate weapon like a double action revolver.

Based on what information is in the OP, I don't think we should automatically assume the young woman is an air-headed idiot. Ignorance isn't the same thing as stupidity.

Another thing while I'm ranting: I do not like this attitude at all--"has me rethinking gun ownership and wondering if some people should not own a gun, much less be allowed to carry a handgun or even be granted a CHL." Who are you going to put in charge of making those decisions? The government? The ATF, FBI, or some other Federal Agency, many of whom shoot themselves in the foot or in the butt with their glops? I think it is a pretty arrogant attitude.

I have been shooting 50 years plus, and I have taught a few people the basics. I absolutely would not hand a glop or even a 1911 to a brand new shooter. If he/she came to me with a semi, I would say, "Let me loan you a pistol for us to get started with," and we would shoot up a couple of boxes of .22 lr in my Model 63. I would then try to transition over to the semi.

Spoken as a true instructor. The OP and this response post both have equally valuable lessons for us.

Asses the student's innate ability, experience, and aptitude and fit the training to meet their needs. Indeed, some should not own for their own safety, but I've seen many "unteachable" students learn very complicated skills with the right instruction.

All of us are different, and everyone needs tailored training for learning to take place.

I am a flight instructor, and believe me, I've seen the "Chuck Yeager's" with an uncanny ability to pick up flying as well as the "Chumley's" who need to take two steps forward and one step back all the way through. I've taught teenage girls up to 70+ year old men and everything in between. (For a real challenge, teach a doctor/lawyer/successful business person something, holy cow they can be difficult!). They key is to accurately asses the student's needs and bring the instruction to the level needed.

Great post Red

 

[george minze]

Very interesting thread!!! Sort of says it all doesn't it.....I appreciate hearing the views of those who obviously are gun lovers of all levels of experience. Having been in Law-enforcement most of my life I have seen what best can be described as incompetent gun handling..by those who have had no previous experience and those with years of experience. Now retired I work part time in a rather large gun shop....The rush for guns has somewhat amazed me...Buyers can be scary at times. I have had more guns pointed at me by far, working in the gun department than I ever had working 40 plus years in law enforcement..P.s, I have worked in big city ghettos. I have been a second amendment supporter for years, however I would like to see a certain amount of training before some folks can take a pistol home with them. The last couple of years has, for better or worse, put guns in more people's hand than ever before.....the one big area of concern is women in their 40's or 50's that have never owned a gun before...They almost always pass the NCI check and in this state that is all that is required....CCW permit is a different question and those that are going to carry or just want to have the right to carry generally get pretty good instruction. It is the home guns that leave you wondering sometimes...I know for gun people some of these gun handling goofs seem idiotic, but sell guns to the general public and you can see every thing possible. Remember there is no draft anymore, subsequently many in today's atmosphere have never been introduced to gun handling....Here in central Mo. kids are brought up with guns, many are far more knowledgeable about all facets of guns than I am...It is those who never even thought about gun ownership that can make you wonder.....do I know the answer No. As gun enthusiast we all need to try to instruct those who are new to guns the basics...How we do that is the question. Most gun accidents happen in the home, not by CCW holders. In fact the low amount of accidents by carry holders has surprised even the gun community. Must be a lesson there somewhere..I'll just let those with much more experience than I have figure it out, but figure it out is a must IMHO

 

[Onomea]

I am not an instructor, and need/want more training myself. But what I do when I take novices to the range, is we first huddle up at the firing line and I go through the basics -- "finger off the trigger until...", etc. -- very seriously. I make them repeat the rules. Then, until I am sure they understand, I stand very close behind them so that I can reach forward and control where the gun is pointing if I need to. (It does help being tall.) And I do think revos are a better way to start than semis.

I think too many people are too casual about gun safety. Not on my watch.

 

[J. W.]

A few observations:

1. There are some people out there that should not own, posess or shoot firearms. There are also people out there that shouldn't own, possess or drive cars. There's those (a seemingly growning number) that really shouldn't have kids. I'm not talking about changing the laws, taking their guns, cars, kids away from them, etc. I'm simply stating that there are some people wholly unfit to do so. While it may be their right, they simply lack the aptitude.

2. Count me in the group that says the instructor is as much to blame as the girl. Taking someone who has never fired a gun before, throwing the rules at them and sticking them on the firing line with a loaded gun is just dumb and irresponsible. Especially one they you may believe lacks the aptitude to handle firearms.

All new shooters need classroom instruction. Of particular importance is muzzle and trigger finger discipline. They don't need to be told about it, they need it ingrained into them before they ever touch a loaded firearm. The comes training on teh basic manual of arms of their weapon. They also need plenty of dry fire time to get a basic grasp on trigger control and sight alignment. Once they show a basic understanding of these basic principle they can go to the range. Even then they need to be started out one round at a time until its become clear they are safe and competent.

 

[BearBio]

Having taught several women to shoot to the point of repeatedly hitting the target and enjoying firing firearms, I know that I am not an expert. But I am relatively experienced. This was a comedy of errors (fortunately, not a tragedy of errors). Everyone to blame.

The student had the wrong attitude and clearly had not thought things through. I ALWAYS have at least one unloaded training session at home, sitting around the table. A few pictures of wounds helps. Introduction to several different actions, several anecdotes (i.e. Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls). Dummy ammunition only. My wife will participate, in case someone doesn't appear to be "getting it".

The boyfriend was a ditwad. He also had no clue. I would have recommended a 3-4" 357 revolver. Pointed out physical differences between men and women (basic hand strength, upper arm musculature, etc.) However, this was beyond the instructor's control.

The instructor doesn't seem too experienced in instructing. Women TEND to take instruction better than men and to take it from a woman better than from a man. The GOAL is to bring a student (in any field) to a level of competency. You must START at the student's level. The instructor should be able to assess it and to LOWER themself to the student's level and then bring them forward from there. (Not shouting, merely emphasizing some words).

It seems to me, everyone screwed up.

 

[Rangerpat]

I taught my wife and son how to safely shoot firearms by starting out with a pellet gun, after proper training they moved up to a .22 revolver, and finally .38 Special target loads in a .357 revolver. This process was over a two week period, we still plink with the pellet gun in the backyard for fun and practice.

 

[redlevel]

Some people should not be allowed to own/carry firearms.

I agree. Minors, convicted felons, those deemed to be mentally incompetent, convicted drug abusers, etc.

Other than that, who is going to make the determination as to who is to be allowed to own/carry? No one from one of the "progressive" states like NJ, NY, or MD, I hope. As I stated earlier, we in Georgia have very easy access to firearms. It is literally part of our culture. There are thousands of people carrying weapons in Georgia who have had very little if any training. I haven't heard of or noticed any rash of accidental shootings in Georgia.

How many police officers have shot themselves in the foot/leg/butt re-holstering their glops? Maybe citizens need to be held to the same standards of firearms handling as these two famous (infamous?) individuals were.

DEA agent has an accidental discharge of a Glock - YouTube


Dumb cop almost shoots partner - YouTube

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Trying to blame the newbie student and/or type of gun wouldn't fly at my club. Safety starts and finishes with the instructor, period.

 

[LHS]

She needs taken to an outdoor range with nobody but her and the instructor and taught how to shoot a .22 revolver firsth, the work up to the glock.

If no one ever teaches her the right way, she will only use the gun the "wrong" way.

Never showing her how to do it properly is not the answer in my opinion. If you do not teach her, at least get her help from another trainer who has experience with her type.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I can only swear to you this is a true story and on my honor and good word should you trust me. Years ago when I was still a Deck Seaman on my first frigate in Naval Station Mayport, FL I first started buying my very own guns with my very own money at a local place called Beach Blvd Gun Gallery. I was browsing the glass cases when a woman walked in with a gun case and signed up for the range. The guy behind the counter asked her if she needed any targets or ammunition. She said yes to both but didn’t know what kind of ammo to choose. He asked if she wanted just some basic low cost type target ammo or if she wanted to try some home defense type ammo to practice with and get a feel for it. She said no thank you, she just needed some .22 ammo. So in she goes with a few boxes of .22 ammo. I was still ogling what I wanted my next purchase to be (in those days I was all about autos and had just bought my Sig P226 but I digress) and she walked out of the range back to the counter. She informed the guy that the ammo was all wrong. He asked what was wrong with it. She said, and I quote, “It keeps falling out of the end of the barrel….” At this point I’m officially being nosy but couldn’t help myself. He told her to clear the gun and bring it to the counter. She brings in a Glock… What for it… A Glock 22… She had some kind of badge clipped at her waist and I wanted so bad to see what it said. Personally, I would have told her to pack up and go. Counter Guy took the high road and did a lot, A LOT, of training with her and they went into the range where about half a dozen shots later she bursts out crying saying it was too loud and too much or something. She ended up leaving. I can only imagine what she ended up doing. I caught somewhere in there that it was her duty issued weapon and she wanted to do some off duty training with it so I’m not sure if I want to know who in the city of Jacksonville issues a weapon to someone who has absolutely NO clue what it is or how to use it. So I know the OP’s feeling on how some people maybe shouldn’t be around sharp objects much less guns. I don’t want to come across as a FUDD, it’s just that sometimes ignorance runs reeeeeeeeaaaaaaal deep in some folks.

 

[johnsonl]

Part of my duties as an FI was to take new hires to the range and have them familiarize with the issue handgun. This consisted of a briefing, the safety lecture, a demo of gun handling skills with them demonstrating it back to me, and a magazine with a few rounds. I am in the habit of standing close enough behind them to be able to stop them from turning around with the weapon if need be. Sometimes first timers just forget and or don't understand the seriousness of gun safety. I've had them try to turn around. I had one who fired once, put the gun down and left without saying a word. I've had "experienced" shooters who would not listen or hit center mass of a B10 at 3 yards. Everybody is different. Smart people learn about themselves on the range. Their personalities tend to bloom with the stress of handling a loaded weapon and using it. I'm glad nobody was hurt in any of these scenarios. I can honestly say that I've never raised my voice at a shooter. A person with a gun in their hands can do terrible things if they are upset or angry. I have had many "quiet chats" behind the line or in an environment off the range, where discussions and decisions can be made in a controlled fashion. Some of those folks moved on to other positions within our agency that did not require carrying a gun and have been very successful. I'm proud that I count them as friends. There are indeed some people who should not handle firearms. The trick is to ensure that they know it and never do it again.

 

[quneur]

...
Other than that, who is going to make the determination as to who is to be allowed to own/carry?
...

WA is a 'shall issue' state. You may obtain a CCW license by filing paperwork at your local police department and pay a $50 fee. There is no training needed.

I don't have an opinion on whether training should be included but if they do institute such laws, they should provide low(er) cost classes. We have hunter education requirements for people born after a certain date and classes for it are available at most gun clubs for around $30. But NRA classes (Snohomish Co.) are pretty costly for poor folks; $150 - $300 + range fees + ammo, etc.

Aside: I sorta live in a black hole. Lots of guns for sale and quite a few gun clubs but no pistolsmiths in my area (Everett - Edmonds - Millcreek area). There is one in Seattle but no one north. No schooling for gunsmithing in WA.