Hammer for an 1891 rimfire?

[Brooklynite]

I just picked up a 2nd model (I believe) 1891 rimfire pistol.
My knowledge of these top break smiths is zero.
I haven't peeked under the hood yet, but can tell the hammer needs to be replaced. The firing pin is loose. I'm not sure if the hammer should be one solid piece of steel and this was a result of some sort of past gunsmithing done to this pistol, or if the firing pin is supposed to be a separate part held in place somehow. Also, when cocked the hammer can be pushed into dropping without touching the trigger.
The action on these seems to be a simplified version of the 1891 revolver, will a hammer from that model (or any other model of single action top break) work as a replacement?
If so, where might I find one? After searching I've seen plenty of parts for the double action top breaks, but very little for the single actions.

 

[glowe]

The frame of a Model '91 is a 38 Single Action revolver. The 38 Single Action, 3rd Model revolver is basically the same as frame and action as the pistol. Actually many combination sets were sold as the revolver and the single shot barrel.

The hammer is a center-fire hammer that acts properly for both the revolver and the rimfire pistol. The pistol barrel is off-set to allow the hammer to strike the rim of the single shot barrel. As I recall, the standard hammer from a 38 Double Action should work, but it does not have all the stop notches as the 38 Single Action.

 

[Brooklynite]

Thanks!
If anyone can confirm that a later model DA hammer would safely work that would simplify the search a great deal.

 

[rct269]

Google Chris Hirsch Gunsmith.

He works only on antiques, knows S&W's inside out, upside down, and backwards, and may be able to help---either with repairs or parts.

While a 2nd Model Single Shot is not an antique, and the frame of the Model of '91 Revolver used on the 1st Model was significantly altered for use on the 2nd Model Single Shot, I'm going to hazard a guess the action is the same (except for the omission of the hand and the cylinder stop which are commonly found in the 1st Model S.S.). That said, if your terminology of 2nd Model 1891 rimfire pistol does, in fact, refer to a 2nd Model Single Shot pistol, and you've taken the 1891 lingo from the barrel address, 1st Model barrels (those marked with the 1891 lingo) are interchangeable with 2nd Model barrels (which carried a different address), and some 2nd's were shipped with 1st Model barrels----just to confuse folks 100 years later.

For the bad news, if your pistol is a 2nd Model, it's possible he wouldn't work on it--------but may be able to furnish you with parts nonetheless.

I reckon Job One is to figure out what you have. 2nd Model S.S. serial numbers run from 1 to 4617. 1st Model S.S. serial numbers run from 279 into the 20000's---haphazardly; NOT consecutively!

"You pays your money, and you takes your pick!"

Ralph Tremaine

AND-----if your serial number is 279 or above, and below 18873, we may be able to confirm its identity as a 1st Model (not counting 2nd's with the same number as 1st's)--------which is to say (most) 1st Model serial numbers are in N&J---------a book. AND (again) most, but not all 1st Models have the (revolver) recoil shields in place---does yours?

As an aside, some later 1st Models appear EXACTLY as a 2nd Model (no recoil shields and vertical grooves in the frame)---differing only in serial numbers------just to confuse the issue further.

Bottom Line: Some (good) photographs wouldn't hurt either.

 

[BMur]

SA DA hammer

The 38 cf SA hammer as compared to a 38 DA hammer are totally different. Not only in design but operation. I think I have both in my parts bin. I'll photo them and post tomorrow. The frames are also different having different side plates. The DA sear is also totally different so the position of the locking slots would be different as well. I'm also pretty sure the hammer will bind and not strike or clear the center fire recoil shield boss. I'll check tomorrow.

Murph

 

[Brooklynite]

Here are some photos.
You can see the separated firing pin on the hammer.
The rear sight also looks like a replacement.

 

[Brooklynite]

Here's the serial # 298X
When I have more time I'll look into the disassembly of these and see if I can figure out why the hammer can slip out of the cocked position with some pressure. Hopefully it's a problem with the hammer itself, and not another part that needs replacing.

 

[BMur]

Weld

It looks like the barrel has definitely been shortened.

If it was my gun I would weld the hammer to repair it. Looks like someone went to a significant length to attempt to repair the blade but not far enough.

You did mention that it does not lock up so its more than just a hammer replacement. Likely the trigger is chipped as well and will need a weld to add metal.

It's always easier to weld then replace worn parts.

If you post the exact barrel length we will be able to confirm a cut.

Murph

 

[rct269]

Okay----you have a 2nd Model Single Shot. You have a 6" version----rarest of the rare!! (They came in 10" (standard), 8" (the best shooter for my money---just because of balance), and 6" (I don't know why, but something has to be ending up being rare to keep us lunatic fringe collectors happy 100 and some odd years later!)

Sooner or later you're going to be asking about value, so here's what my 2nds sold for when I decided it'd be better to leave a pile of money behind me, rather than a pile of guns. I figured the guns'd be better off too!! These sold within the last 3 1/2 years (+/-), and the condition was more or less the same for each----the 6" being the lowest condition of the lot----but still not too shabby.

10"----$800
8"-----$1200
6"-----$1750

So, as to your several faults: The rear sight is kosher---all except for the blade which was "customized/butchered" somewhere along the line to make someone happy-----and the rest of us unhappy. The rear blades are unavailable at ACE Hardware and anywhere else---except here. I have a machinist drawing of the sight blade which has been used by more than a few folks here to have replacements made---all with good results. It can be made by your friendly local machine shop---or anybody else with a milling machine in their basement-----or with a file, lots and lots of patience, and hours and hours of free time---and some sort of mental illness. One such member of our lunatic fringe did just that---and it worked out fine! I trade a copy of the drawing for the name and address of where to send it. The hammer/firing pin situation is beyond my scope of experience------thank God for small favors!!! Although, just sitting and staring at it, I'd be tempted to increase the width of the firing pin tang with an automatic center punch (on both sides), just because it's easier and MUCH more precise than Bubba's center punch and a hammer---and then tap it back into its slot. A little dab of Super Glue might well produce the same results.

Be well!!

Ralph Tremaine

Back to the rear sight for a moment: The teeny, tiny screws holding the retaining plate in place can be removed by any appropriate screwdriver which will be found in Lowes Kobalt Precision Screwdriver Set (Part# 0525844). Don't be put off by the low price ($10-$12 for 10 tools) way back when, which suggests they're junk). I've used them for probably 20+ years, and they seem to be good to go for another 20+. The best part about them is the handles which are big enough to hold in your hands. I have another set of small screwdrivers from Brownells----REALLY FINE Jewelers screwdrivers (6) in a REALLY FINE wooden case, all made in Germany by Black Forest Elves, for a mere $75 (way back when) which I've never used----simply because you have to hold on to them with your fingers instead of your hands. I doubt I'll live long enough to figure that out.

 

[BMur]

SA DA hammer

The Model of 91 hammer is actually unique.
See photo of a standard DA and SA hammer. They are not compatible.

I think it's also obvious the OP's barrel is cut.

See photo

The pin placement is way too high and the barrel rib is pounded flat!

Murph

 

[Brooklynite]

Thanks again for the replies.

Welding is not a skill I have, so thats out as a DYI fix.
Is the issue I described with the hammer definitely an issue with a broken trigger and not the hammer? It does lock back and drop when the trigger is pulled, but when locked back it can be forced to drop by applying forward pressure with my thumb. One or both parts certainly seems worn down.

I do believe it's very likely the barrel was cut. I'm not home right now to check, but if I remember correctly there is text on the barrel (factory address?) that is partially covered by the location of the front sight. But I'm also pretty sure the muzzle isn't just a flat cut and has come contouring, so someone put a little time into it.

I'd like to get this thing working as a shooter, so far I don't have very much money in it and hope it won't cost a whole lot to get it up and running.

 

[rct269]

BMur is one of our members who qualifies for the title of Student---the elite when it comes to looking for, paying attention to, analyzing, and remembering the tiniest details----one of the few you best listen to closely.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

It is a simple task for a qualified welder to fill that slot. You can file and sand the sight flat, then add a slot of proper size to rehabilitate that blade. As for the front sight, "spectresupply2" or "relicgunworx" on ebay have Marbles and Sheard sight blades that would be appropriate for your barrel. Buy it now since the S&W factory offered Marbles, Sheard, and Lyman sight that were factory installed. They will fit, if stated for an I frame. They do not show up too often, so I would get one and try it. They are on ebay and there are front sights for I frame target guns available quite often.

Now to the hammer. I would guess it is a non-factory repair back in the day and could have been glued in place, coming loose from the shock of dropping the hammer one time to many. It would also be a candidate for the welder to MIG weld it in place. Problem is where is "in place"? You must be sure that when the hammer is set flush with the firing pin it strikes the rim of the ammo. Take some spent 22 brass and chamber the empty case dropping the hammer to see where it hits. If the repair was done correctly, it should hit the rim. Talk with your welder about the possibility of repairing both the hammer and the rear sight. Worth a few bucks to put it back to what it should be which will add value to an uncommon Single Shot pistol.

 

[rct269]

As far as welding goes, that's what Chris Hirsch used to fix my broken latch/sight on the NM #3 Target---the 38 WINCHESTER CTG NM #3 Target.

That sight, S&W's first adjustable, was made by milling a groove from front to back of the latch (from the front of the tang to the rear of the piece----where they milled a notch to accommodate the sight carrier). So far, so good. Then they fashioned the sight carrier---with its own tang to fit in the slot. Done and done.

The tang (now three tangs side by side, instead of one at the beginning) bears against the barrel latch cam. It fits in a recess milled into the barrel, and bears against a VERY STOUT little spring. Someone, somewhere along the way, very possibly, and almost certainly yours truly, installed the latch in the barrel WITHOUT the sight carrier and its tang in place---and closed the barrel. (Don't ask why---there's no good answer.) Giving that just a modicum of thought for a moment, one comes to realize the original latch tang was SEVERELY weakened when they milled that slot, but not to worry because when the sight carrier's in place its tang fills that slot----and restores some/all of the strength----most certainly enough. But now, some mental midget has installed the latch without the sight carrier in place; so we have two tangs instead of three---and there's a space between them. The latch rises and falls when the barrel is closed---the barrel catch cam spring obliging to keep things nice and tight. But this time, with space between the latch tangs, they tried to bend. Given they were never intended to bend, and were made out of something less than the finest steel (which didn't even exist at the time), they broke---both of them---at exactly the same place---SNAP!!!!

That's the dilemma the mental midget with a SUPER RARE gun faced when he went shopping for a WIZARD to fix it. The shopping came up with several folks who didn't know if they could fix it, but they'd "sure like to try". Chris Hirsch (a WIZARD) replied, "I know I can fix it." And fix it he did---absolute perfection----absolutely undetectable even if I'd shown you where to look!!

There are gunsmiths, and then there are GUNSMITHS!!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mmaher94087]

My take on how to fix the firing pin on the original hammer base would be to thoroughly degrease the pin and hammer body and silver solder them together. Silver solder is strong and, in this application, doesn't require 1500-degree heat and shouldn't ruin the case colors on the hammer. The excess solder can be more easily cleaned up and the job shouldn't cost an arm and a leg to perform.

As an alternative, since the barrel has been cut already and any collector value has been lost, I'd suggest looking for a 1st Model (Baby Russian) hammer or a 2nd Model (.38 Single Action, 2nd Model) hammer. Although not "correct" for this 3rd model, they would work and only students of these single shots would notice the difference.

 

[rct269]

A MIG welder is also known as a "Carolina Mud Gun".

TIG welding is a hand job----applying only the filler the artist/welder deems necessary.(!!)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Brooklynite]

Opened it up after dinner, I'm not an expert but it looks like the last notch in the hammer is the cause of it slipping out of place?
The first two have sharp lines and hold the hammer solid. The last one seems smoother and doesn't have an edge.
It also appears to have the hammer from a revolver even though it's a 2nd model?
But I could be way off, again… not an expert.

 

[Brooklynite]

As an alternative, since the barrel has been cut already and any collector value has been lost, I'd suggest looking for a 1st Model (Baby Russian) hammer or a 2nd Model (.38 Single Action, 2nd Model) hammer. Although not "correct" for this 3rd model, they would work and only students of these single shots would notice the difference.

This is what I was hoping to do from the beginning. I don't really mind losing authenticity, I'd like this to be a functioning shooter.
My wife liked the looks of it and wanted to give it a try, so that's a plus.

Would replacing the hammer be a tricky thing if I can find one? I figured it wouldn't be too big a deal since there's no worrying about cylinder timing.


Photos of the barrel:

 

[rct269]

I've never paid any attention to the actions of 1st/2nd single shots----always assuming they were the same. The only real differences between the two that show are the 1st Model is a revolver frame and action with a single shot barrel stuck on it---instead of a cylinder/barrel assembly. I've always thought of the 2nd Models as a refinement---same frame and action, but with significant alterations to the frame rendering it very clearly as a single shot made to be a single shot------only----no switching back and forth. The only significant alterations to the actions is most, if not all 1st Models have hands and cylinder stops-------which some folks removed---believing it made for a smoother action.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mmaher94087]

The hammer and the trigger sears are both destroyed. If shootable is your only concern, then stoning both sears could make it operable. There are no timing concerns as this is a single shot and there is no concern about carry up and lock up of a cylinder revolver. I recommend stoning the sears and not using a file to sharpen the sears. There is a good chance that the sharpening will also increase the trigger pull but the result will be a gun that works.

As I stated above, a replacement trigger and hammer from a .38, single action, 2nd Model may be a better choice although not 100% correct.