Hand - 32 - Ejector
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That is just what it says on the box, a .32 Hand Ejector.
It should be from the mid-1950s, prior to model numbers, so it didn't have one. If you're so inclined you can call it a pre-Model 30.
It should be from the mid-1950s, prior to model numbers, so it didn't have one. If you're so inclined you can call it a pre-Model 30.
Looks like a nice .32 HE.
The frame is known as a 4-screw (there's one hiding beneath the grip). The Model 30 has a 3-screw frame so I believe it's a bit early to be called a pre-model.
My 2" 637539 shipped on June 1, 1956, so I'd suggest yours might have left the factory a bit earlier.
The frame is known as a 4-screw (there's one hiding beneath the grip). The Model 30 has a 3-screw frame so I believe it's a bit early to be called a pre-model.
My 2" 637539 shipped on June 1, 1956, so I'd suggest yours might have left the factory a bit earlier.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Bob:
I'm not that familiar with this line of models, but I'm not sure the screw count is generally accepted as a defining criterium for pre-model status. At least the SWCA database switches to calling them "pre-M30" as early as 1949 in the 530-thousands.
That's a beauty!
As posted above you have a Model .32 hand Ejector officially. More specifically by collector identification you have a "Model of 1953 new I Frame, .32 HE".
Because it has the identical engineering design and frame forging of the 1957 Model 30 designated vintage, it can be referenced by the slang term of Pre Model 30. The # of screws notwithstanding.
We can only estimate a ship date, because it has little correlation to the serial #, to be in the 2nd to 3rd quarter of 1956.
As posted above you have a Model .32 hand Ejector officially. More specifically by collector identification you have a "Model of 1953 new I Frame, .32 HE".
Because it has the identical engineering design and frame forging of the 1957 Model 30 designated vintage, it can be referenced by the slang term of Pre Model 30. The # of screws notwithstanding.
We can only estimate a ship date, because it has little correlation to the serial #, to be in the 2nd to 3rd quarter of 1956.
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Using your example suggests a .38 Chiefs Special with a 5-screw frame, small, roundish trigger guard, and grip frame that's an eighth inch shorter than its successor could be called a pre-model 36, which most on this forum won't abide.
Several years ago I read a post on this forum where the author (who I don't recall) suggested the "pre-model" terminology applied only to the model manufactured immediately before, and identical to, the model with a model number. I interpret that to be determined by screw count for the I and J-frame revolvers.
I'm not a purist -- I call 'em Baby .38 Chiefs Specials and Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Specials -- but I avoid the pre-model term because the factory never called them that, and because it adds another dividing line that's hard to define. I might suggest the only ones eligible to be called pre-models are the ones produced/shipped after June 12, 1957, when the company issued the order to add model numbers. Right up until the first batch stamped Model 30 (or 36) the factory simply called 'em the .32 Hand Ejector (and .38 Chiefs Special).
Please don't call the SPCA; I'm not trying to beat a dead horse.
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Oops. I wasn't intent on getting into any extended discussion of the "Pre-Model philosophy", which I don't see as important enough to defend. But since it'll be with us, I just like to be clear on the parameters.
That's why I said I don't know enough about this model. With the M&P, which I do know about, the screw count changes within the collector-accepted time window for a pre-Model 10, 1948 to 1957/58, with the elimination of the top screw, and that is not considered relevant for the moniker by any collector I've encountered yet. So I was wondering how the .32 HE differed there.
PS: Cogitating about this a bit more, I think your Chiefs Special is in a bit different situation; with only about 7 or 8 years of history before model numbers, having a very restrictive "pre-model" definition, if at all, makes sense.
Both the M&P and the .32 HE have about 60 years of pre-model history, so there's a lot more leeway for a more expansive definition. JMHO
That's why I said I don't know enough about this model. With the M&P, which I do know about, the screw count changes within the collector-accepted time window for a pre-Model 10, 1948 to 1957/58, with the elimination of the top screw, and that is not considered relevant for the moniker by any collector I've encountered yet. So I was wondering how the .32 HE differed there.
PS: Cogitating about this a bit more, I think your Chiefs Special is in a bit different situation; with only about 7 or 8 years of history before model numbers, having a very restrictive "pre-model" definition, if at all, makes sense.
Both the M&P and the .32 HE have about 60 years of pre-model history, so there's a lot more leeway for a more expansive definition. JMHO
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I hope I did not sound defensive. Sure didn't mean to be. I enjoy airing out boundaries, and I thoroughly enjoy reading and trying to absorb others' thoughts.
I believe the "gray area" on what is and what isn't a pre-model is interesting. I like consensus definitions based on logic, but I don't think we'll ever achieve that for certain things.
Slàinte
I don't smell anything so it's not a dead horse, and in fact will never be on this subject because it's an educational process.
The Pre Model term is only one part of a larger context so for example if the model in question is in another category, it can't be in the Pre Model category too:
PART 1: THE FULL COLLECTOR TERM VOCABULARY
1. Pre-war Models up thru 1941.
2. Wartime production Models.
3. Transitional Models (post war) 1945-1950; I frames 1946-1952.
4. Pre-Models: K frames incorporate the 1948 design improvements, N frames incorporate the 1950 design improvements, and I & J frames incorporate the 1953 design improvements, all before model numbers were assigned.
5. Numbered Models following June 12, 1957 change order and forward.
REFERENCES - SCSW 3rd Ed., Pg. 153 & Pg. 423 (misleading); 4th Ed., Pg. 180 & 516:
Pre Model relative to Screw Count:
I and J frame screw count can be a quirky thing relative to correlating with the Pre Model term. Often their screw count is a good delineator, just as often it is not.
When the screw count change corresponds with a simultaneous engineering change it's an accurate delineator. If there's no simultaneous eng change it's not a delineator.
The 5 screw Baby J frame and 6 and 5 screw I frames are examples that are not Pre Models. They do not have engineering changes that are the same as the subsequent Model # versions of those guns.
Both the Model of 1953 I and J 4 & 3 screw frames are Pre Models.
The K and N frames are quirky as well; 5 & 4 screw models is an accurate delineator of whether the model is a pre model or not. Pre Model is not relevant to 3 screw models because they all had Model #s by then.
Hope this helps,
The Pre Model term is only one part of a larger context so for example if the model in question is in another category, it can't be in the Pre Model category too:
PART 1: THE FULL COLLECTOR TERM VOCABULARY
1. Pre-war Models up thru 1941.
2. Wartime production Models.
3. Transitional Models (post war) 1945-1950; I frames 1946-1952.
4. Pre-Models: K frames incorporate the 1948 design improvements, N frames incorporate the 1950 design improvements, and I & J frames incorporate the 1953 design improvements, all before model numbers were assigned.
5. Numbered Models following June 12, 1957 change order and forward.
REFERENCES - SCSW 3rd Ed., Pg. 153 & Pg. 423 (misleading); 4th Ed., Pg. 180 & 516:
Pre Model relative to Screw Count:
I and J frame screw count can be a quirky thing relative to correlating with the Pre Model term. Often their screw count is a good delineator, just as often it is not.
When the screw count change corresponds with a simultaneous engineering change it's an accurate delineator. If there's no simultaneous eng change it's not a delineator.
The 5 screw Baby J frame and 6 and 5 screw I frames are examples that are not Pre Models. They do not have engineering changes that are the same as the subsequent Model # versions of those guns.
Both the Model of 1953 I and J 4 & 3 screw frames are Pre Models.
The K and N frames are quirky as well; 5 & 4 screw models is an accurate delineator of whether the model is a pre model or not. Pre Model is not relevant to 3 screw models because they all had Model #s by then.
Hope this helps,
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I'd quibble with this characterization applying to all K-frames. Even for those among us who accept the Pre-Model 10 designation only grudgingly and see it as fundamentally superfluous there is a general consensus that the 1948 engineering change to the new hammer shape is the decisive (since most easily identifiable) marker that legitimizes a pre-model. Largely cosmetic changes like the shape of the front sight, and pertinent here, the top screw's demise, that occurred between 1948 and 1957, are not seen as a factor.
We're in complete agreement. Your Pre Model 10 K frame example does not conflict in any way with the pre model criteria I posted above. Albeit the 1948 hammer change you mention is only an artifact of the actual key engineering change that qualifies it as a Pre Model which of course is the short or speed action.
I have never seen or correlated screw count as criteria for pre model status qualification before. It's kind of a side issue, just complicates the discussion, and I only addressed it because it came up in this thread.
OP
Rikkn
US Veteran
I am so confused..........
Then this is a Model of 1953, or, a Pre Model 30. Any opinions on value ?
Then this is a Model of 1953, or, a Pre Model 30. Any opinions on value ?
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Sorry. We tend to go off on tangents discussing technicalities of collector distinctions whenever an excuse pops up.
Unless you're planning to acquire more of these from different eras, the .32 Hand Ejector is the only label you need, and the only one that would have been used in catalogs of the time. That's why this is the only thing on the box.
All the other terms, including the pre-model distinctions, were made up by collectors after the fact. And since we made them up, we can argue about them endlessly
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so it is probably worth more.Nothing posted indicated it isn't both, because it is both. Officially the factory designation is a "Model of 1953 .32 Hand Ejector". In collector terminology it's a Pre Model 30.
Because and unfortunately many posters forget there are various levels of member's knowledge from none to a lot. To understand exactly which models and specific versions of those models are discussed on this forum, you need to understand both types of terminology.
Hence why in my first post above and in most of my posts, I clarify by using both identifers of a model. Member's posts are usually not BS sessions, they're semi technical discussions. So they need to be read (and re-read!) with focus, not speed read if one wants the full value of the knowledge being shared and answers to their questions!
Way up at the top in my first post I wrote:
"As posted above you have a Model .32 hand Ejector officially. More specifically by collector identification you have a "Model of 1953 new I Frame, .32 HE".
"Because it has the identical engineering design and frame forging of the 1957 Model 30 designated vintage, it can be referenced by the slang term of Pre Model 30. The # of screws notwithstanding."
Okay? Hope that helps,
Since you have the box, I'd add at least $100, maybe $150 to Muley Gil's estimate. Now, then, to clarify, I don't seek out boxes, in fact I'd rather not have most of them. I don't think the cardboard is worth a C note or more, but having it along with your .32 HE makes the package more attractive and valuable to many folks.
