Hand Ejector 2nd model 45 COLT **NOW WITH PICTURES**

[SIGWolf]

I found one of these for sale. However, I don't know how to determine if it is a conversion or was originally in 45LC. I've read here that the original 45LC guns were not made in large numbers, so my suspicion is that the one I found is a conversion. How do I tell? Will the original 45LC always have the caliber somewhere on the gun?

I took pictures of the gun, but in reviewing them cannot find any markings regarding caliber. The serial number begins with an E, but I don't know if that means anything.

Thanks

Turns out it does have 45 Colt on the barrel. Look closely at the last picture.

 

[DWalt]

I don't have much personal knowledge, but the .455 HE second models reportedly have SNs in the range from 5462 to 74755, in September 1916. About 600 .455 first models are also in this SN range. 745 second models in the same range were factory chambered in .45 Colt for Canada. But there is no record of what those SNs were. I'd say a factory letter might help, but statistically yours has probably been re-chambered much later. There were three methods of re-chambering, and which one yours used could narrow the possibilities. Definitely, if yours has a cylinder with no SN on the rear face, or has no cartridge rim recesses in the chambers, it was not originally chambered in .45 Colt. If the cylinder has cartridge rim chamber recesses and a SN, it may or may not be factory original.

See more about this here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/330789-s-w-455-now-45-long-colt.html

OBTW, there is no .45 LC - only the .45 Colt (the original SAA revolver cartridge) or the .45 S&W (aka .45 Schofield). .45 LC is a creation of gun writers in the 1960s, supposedly to distinguish the longer .45 Colt case from the shorter.45 Schofield case, among other theories. There was never a .45 Short Colt so you can't have a .45 Long Colt.

 

[lowhog]

Pictures please.

 

[SIGWolf]

Pictures added

Pictures please.

I've added pictures.

 

[SIGWolf]

SN is E476

I don't have much personal knowledge, but the .455 HE second models reportedly have SNs in the range from 5462 to 74755, in September 1916. About 600 .455 first models are also in this SN range. 745 second models in the same range were factory chambered in .45 Colt for Canada. But there is no record of what those SNs were. I'd say a factory letter might help, but statistically yours has probably been re-chambered much later. There were three methods of re-chambering, and which one yours used could narrow the possibilities. Definitely, if yours has a cylinder with no SN on the rear face, or has no cartridge rim recesses in the chambers, it was not originally chambered in .45 Colt. If the cylinder has cartridge rim chamber recesses and a SN, it may or may not be factory original.

See more about this here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/330789-s-w-455-now-45-long-colt.html

OBTW, there is no .45 LC - only the .45 Colt (the original SAA revolver cartridge) or the .45 S&W (aka .45 Schofield). .45 LC is a creation of gun writers in the 1960s, supposedly to distinguish the longer .45 Colt case from the shorter.45 Schofield case, among other theories. There was never a .45 Short Colt so you can't have a .45 Long Colt.

i don't have pictures of the rear of the chamber and didn't look for a SN. It does have .45 COLT on the barrel. Is that necessary and sufficient to indicate it was originally chambered in .45 COLT? If it was originally chamber in .45 COLT, what would be a decent price to pay for such a gun? I don't want to over pay.

 

[DWalt]

The civilian models were also chambered in .45 Colt, among other calibers, but not too many of them. Does the SN tell you anything?

 

[Bill Bates]

I'll go with converted from a .455 with the proof marks. Smith & Wesson didn't mark the caliber on the .45 Colts.

Photos of the back of the cylinder and recoil shield will tell the story.

 

[Göring's S&W]

The gun appears refinished. The barrel caliber marking is not factory.

If the cylinder has cartridge rim chamber recesses and a SN, it may or may not be factory original.

My understanding is that if its a factory 45 colt 2nd model HE, there would be no need to countersink the chambers, since the cylinder would be installed properly to permit function with 45 colt cases, without countersinking. The counter sinking stems from guns which were 455 which would not function properly due to the increased thickness of 45 colt case rims.

 

[SIGWolf]

I'll check the rear of the cylinder on Monday and see what it looks like. I had wondered about the finish.

 

[SIGWolf]

The gun appears refinished. The barrel caliber marking is not factory.



My understanding is that if its a factory 45 colt 2nd model HE, there would be no need to countersink the chambers, since the cylinder would be installed properly to permit function with 45 colt cases, without countersinking. The counter sinking stems from guns which were 455 which would not function properly due to the increased thickness of 45 colt case rims.

So, SN on the rear of the chamber and not recessed?

 

[DWalt]

The metal finish does not seem consistent with the condition of the grip panels. That could mean non-original grips or refinished metal, or both. In any event, it's a red flag.

 

[DWalt]

"My understanding is that if its a factory 45 colt 2nd model HE, there would be no need to countersink the chambers, since the cylinder would be installed properly to permit function with 45 colt cases, without countersinking. The counter sinking stems from guns which were 455 which would not function properly due to the increased thickness of 45 colt case rims."

Entirely possible they could have installed a correctly-numbered .45 Colt chamber instead of .455 at the factory. Or they could have factory-rechambered a .455 cylinder. It would be interesting to make a precise measurement of the cylinder length for comparison to a known .455 cylinder. I don't know if there is a bore diameter difference between the .455 and the .45.

 

[lowhog]

The revolver has been refinished at one time.It will make a great defense weapon in 45 colt.

 

[DWalt]

OK - who can put it all together? Authentic original .45 Colt or converted .455? Refinished or not? I would not be too eager to drop a bundle on it at present without having it in hand for a closer inspection.

 

[lebomm]

It carries UK-style marks and the 4th pic seems to show counterbored chambers. Pretty clearly rechambered, and likely refinished as well.
JMHO

Larry

 

[Göring's S&W]

As I already said, the gun has a non-original barrel caliber marking = likely re-chambered. The finish has zero luster, and the side plate joint line is perfectly visible and there are areas of blue over pitting = refinished.

 

[Messer]

It looks like the cal. marking says "45L COLT" to me (at least on this laptop screen it does). Is that what others see?

Bob S.

 

[Hondo44]

The # beginning with an E on the side of the frame is not the serial #, it's the military unit the gun was issued to.
What is the serial # from the butt?
Agree with others, it's been refinished.
Agree with others, it's not a factory 45 Colt, the caliber stamp is not a factory stamp. It would have a star on the butt and a factory rework date on the left side of grip frame.
The factory converted these by reaming and recessing the chambers of the original cylinder.
You can verify which of the 3 most typical methods of conversion to 45 Colt was used by checking the following:

1. If the rear face of the cyl still has the serial # stamped on it and the chambers have been recessed slightly, that is the preferred method since you can still safely chamber and shoot 455 ammo. And you still have the cyl s/n. Agree with Larry, in photo 4 this looks likely from the small gap.

2. If the rear face of the cyl still has the serial # stamped on it and the chambers have NOT been recessed, the breech face has been shaved.

3. If the serial # is missing from the rear face of the cyl, the cyl has been shaved.

How much is the gun shop asking for it?

 

[Buford57]

Conversion.

The remnants of British Commonwealth proof/military acceptance marks on the frame and the addition of the "45 L Colt" marking (non-standard itself) in a non-standard location make that much clear. How it was converted (cylinder shaving, breech shaving or counterboring) is an interesting question and one whose answer would have a bearing on how much I would be inclined to pay if I was a buyer. I suppose it is conceivable that a factory cylinder was fitted later, but I'm 99 44/100% sure this started life as a .455.

I see Hondo44 was typing while I was thinking.

 

[SIGWolf]

Price?

The # beginning with an E on the side of the frame is not the serial #, it's the military unit the gun was issued to.
What is the serial # from the butt?
Agree with others, it's been refinished.
Agree with others, it's not a factory 45 Colt, the caliber stamp is not a factory stamp. It would have a star on the butt and a factory rework date on the left side of grip frame.
The factory converted these by reaming and recessing the chambers of the original cylinder.
You can verify which of the 3 most typical methods of conversion to 45 Colt was used by checking the following:

1. If the rear face of the cyl still has the serial # stamped on it and the chambers have been recessed slightly, that is the preferred method since you can still safely chamber and shoot 455 ammo. And you still have the cyl s/n. Agree with Larry, in photo 4 this looks likely from the small gap.

2. If the rear face of the cyl still has the serial # stamped on it and the chambers have NOT been recessed, the breech face has been shaved.

3. If the serial # is missing from the rear face of the cyl, the cyl has been shaved.

How much is the gun shop asking for it?

They have it listed for $699. However, I know, having worked there, the owner paid $200 for the gun.