Hand Ejector .455 converted to .45 Colt

[Jim G]

Now have a S&W Hand Ejector originally a .455 webley converted to .45 colt. Unfortunately, the "Master Converter", whoever that was, relieved the recoil shield to create the needed additional head space rather than working on the cylinder. Gun works fine with beveled .45 colt cases which are required to clear the hand when the gun is put in battery. I am now the "Master Beveler". Was told this is a Canadian gun and it has a wealth of British type marks on it and is in military format with lanyard ring and all.

Any suggestions for cases that I would not need to mill along the edges? Any particular markings to look for or source for same for further identification?

This gun is very accurate with 7 gr of unique and any size if bullet from .452 to .455, 200 to 260 gr weight in spite of having a .455 bore. Everything shoots right on, right to left, with heavier bullets simply hitting higher. 250 to 260 gr slugs are right on point of aim at 35 feet. Not bad for 100 or so years old.

Anything else I should look for on this old baby?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[DCWilson]

I have a similarly converted .455 HE/Second. I think planing the recoil shield instead of the cylinder was actually the preferred way of enabling these revolvers to handle .45 Colt cartridges. Working on the cylinder you would have to take care of the high ledge in the ejector star as well.

I haven't had the problem with hand/rim collision that you experience and can't quite visualize what is happening. Can you rotate the cylinder slightly as you close the yoke in order to dodge the part of the hand that protrudes? Perhaps the hand was not properly fitted to the gun after conversion?

I also have a .455/First that was converted by slightly counterboring the cylinder chambers. I kind of wish the conversion shop had worked the recoil shield instead.

 

[Jim G]

.455 H/E converted to .45 colt

Very interesting as I have read that the cylider was usually what was adapted by slightly counter boring the chambers which would seem to me to not require star adjustments!

The gun indexes and locks up well but the hand impacts the rim on the .45 colt cases enough to cause significant drag and leaves a small ding on the edge of the rim of the case. One can fiddle with the lock and index the cylider. This only happens to the cartidge next in line to go into battery. It is as if the hand might be a little too wide but I am afraid to fool with it for fear of messing up the timing. Beveling the outside rim of the cases works fine but is somewhat laboreous even with a hand drill and the little "tool" I rigged up for the process. A milling machine works better as I have used one in the past.

Seems like if one could take a small bit of the inside corner of the hand off without messing up the timing that would fix it as the hand is very straight edged with sharp corners at the top.

 

[DWalt]

I too do not completely understand the problem with the rims interfering with the hand. However if the problem can be eliminated by beveling the rims slightly, and if you handload, I'd be tempted to get a sufficient number of cases and bevel the rims, leaving the revolver itself alone. Any time you fool around with revolver parts, you risk getting into a lot bigger job than originally planned. Screwing up a part on an old revolver can mean difficulty in finding a replacement part and can be costly.

The best way to do rim beveling would be to use a small metal lathe, but if you do not have access to one, then I guess a grinder, either bench or a Dremel tool, would be a less elegant and less uniform way to do the same thing. A file would work, but would take a lot longer.

I do a lot of cartridge case conversions to odd calibers, some of which involves trimming and beveling rims. It takes very little time to do this on a lathe. And it has to be done only once.

 

[Jim G]

I actually took a nail and wrapped duct tape around it till I got a snug fit inside the cases and use a hand drill and a file. Works quite well and is quick. Consistency of the bevel is ok after you do it a while checking cases for clearence now and then. I use a mill when I have the time to go where it is located as I do not have one myself.

The problem is the difference in thickness and or rim diameter between the .455 and .45 colt case heads. By removing the material from the recoil shield one creates enough head space for the thicker cases but the hand now comes out further than it did (by the amount of material removed from the shield) than it did from the shield to begin with and hits the case heads on those .45 colt cases when it is coming up to go under the firing pin hole as the hand is going into the star. Reducing the thickness of the rims along the edge by beveling eliminates this problem. I suppose one could also simply reduce the diameter of the case heads but this would require removing much more overall material than does beveling. We are talking a very small amount of material that would be required to be removed from the inside corner of the hand to avoid this.

I would not doubt that the hand is not original and a little too wide but like you said, do not want to possibly fool with the timing by modifying this part.

 

[Jim G]

.455 H/E British markings

Anyone have a good source for identifying British or Canadian markings on this military issued S&W H/E .455 now a converted .45 colt? Lots of markings on this gun including those on the back strap that supposedly identify unit to which it was issued.

 

[DWalt]

It's also possible to thin the rim (from the front, not the back), but that operation, while simple, definitely requires a lathe to do properly. I've had to do that also on several occasions, most recently in making up .30 Remington cases from .30-30 brass.

You might want to modify your drill procedure using a Dremel tool and a grinding wheel or sanding drum. That would probably go a bit faster than using a file.

I find that my Dremel tool is something I just can't do without, working on guns or anything else in the house, car, etc. I can't count the times it's gotten me out of a tight spot when nothing else could. I've gone through three of them in about 30 years.

Unfortunately, I know about zero regarding Canadian or British proof/inspection markings.

 

[Jim G]

.455 H/E

I actually spin the cases against the file which is quick and gives a uniform result.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I have a 1916 S&W 2nd Model which was originaly in .455, and, which got converted to accept .45 Colt, and, .45 ACP with Moon Clips.

What I elected to do, was to modify a bunch of .45 Colt Cases by reduciung the diameter of their erstwhile slighy incised annular 'ring' for them to fit into the full Moon Clips.

Worked out nicely, took care of what in my case was excessive Head Space, and, looks really cool, having the .45 Colt Cartridges set up in Moon Clips.


I was not aware that some conversions had been done by reducing the Recoil Shield in order to increase the Headspace.


It would be very easy to use a Wood Lathe or Drill Press, to reduce the diameter of or to bevel the Rims of .45 Colt Cases, especially if one shaped a short length of Dowel or Brass Drift for a snug-enough slip fit of the Cartridge Case on to it, then, merely use a fine File as it spins.

 

[Jim G]

for: Oyeboteb

That is pretty much what I did but using my old standby, duct tape, and a nail. Works great but it would be nice if I could find some brass that works out of the box. Starline brass comes the closest of those I have tried. Have ordered some .455 webley cartridges to see if they will function and fire. If so, I might switch to .455 webley brass.

Am still trying to find a source for info on the Canadian or British markings on the old gun.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have what I believe is a 455 HE that was converted to 44 Special. At least, I am pretty sure that's what it is, I have not lettered it at this point. The cylinder, barrel, and ejector star have no serial number on them, indicating to me that somebody converted it to 44 Special when it was brought back into this country. Apparently this was fairly common with the 455 guns that went to Canada, some were converted to 44 Special when they came back to this country as the 44 Sp round was much more common here.

Mine has the Canadian Broad Arrow on it.

The Broad Arrow is the acceptance mark that has been used for centuries by the British Government. Sometimes it just looks like some chicken scratches, so you sometimes have to look carefully. The mark is a simple representation of the point of an arrow.

Broad arrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Canadian Broad Arrow is the same as the British Broad Arrow, except it is surrounded by the letter C, for Canada. There were other variations on the Broad Arrow for other British colonies and possessions, including India, Australia, and New Zealand, that I am aware of.

This gun also carries a proof mark on the butt. It looks like a tiny crown. There are many British proof marks, most of them have a crown of some sort. They usually have some letters too, indicating where the gun was proofed. Here is a link to some proof marks from Europe. You can see what I mean about the British proof marks. I have not seen any references to Canadian proof marks, but that little crown on my gun sure looks like a proof mark to me.

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/archives/Proofmarks.pdf

The photos that I have pasted in are

1. The British Broad Arrow

2. My 44 HE

3. The Canadian Broad Arrow stamped on the frame

4. Proof Mark

Sorry, there are no markings on the backstrap of my gun.

I see no evidence of any modification to the frame on my gun, maybe I got lucky. It shoots 44 Specials just fine.

Hope this is of some help.

 

[Jim G]

HE .455

Driftwood,

You have an excellent specimen. Mine is in original condition except for the conversion to .45 colt and significant dings, scratches and some pitting with crowns on each cylinder chamber with a BNP, for ntro proofed I believe and many other markings but is not in nearly as good of condition as your rebuilt model. Crossed swords, crossed flags, B 11604 under the crane, same serial # by the lanyard, K.A.5.7r and 120 over 12 on the backstrap of the grip plus others.

I will check out your sources for further info and do thank you for the info and photos of your fine gun.

Jim G

 

[DCWilson]

Driftwood, does your gun have the same serial number on the flat underside of the barrel and on the rear face of the cylinder? It has the '30s era ejector rod knob, and I wonder if this isn't a completely legitimate .44 Hand Ejector/Second model that went to Canada and then came back. The only thing that makes me acknowledge possible origin as a .455 is the absence of a small logo on the right side of the frame. The company did not stamp logos on its guns during WWI, when the .455 Second models were being produced.

Beyond that, the only way to convert a .455 to some smaller caliber like .44 (or .429, to be precise) is to replace the barrel and cylinder, or sleeve them. Do you know if that happened with your gun?

Beautiful specimen, whatever it's precise history. I'm envious.

 

[haggis]

I do occasional rim modifications by lightly chucking up a cartridge case in a drill press and using a file to adjust rim diameter and thickness, and to cut larger extraction grooves in revolver cartridges being converted to semiauto. Obviously, a lathe would be better, but without one, one makes do.

Even on a drastic modification, like .32 S&W Long to 7.65 French Long, the rim mods can be done in less than a minute. BTW, the .32 S&W Long is a good starting point for 7.65 Mannlicher pistol (the Argentine Army guns) - the only difference from the 7.65 French is case length.

Buck

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

DCWilson

Perhaps you did not notice in my earlier post, there is no SN on the barrel, cylinder, or underside of the extractor star. The only mark on the flat under the barrel is a small square, stamped into the metal. The cylinder has a similar square underneath the extractor star, and the number 25 stamped opposite the square. But the only place the SN shows up on the gun is on the bottom of the butt.

The gun was sold to me as a 44 HE 2nd Model, but I became suspicious when I realized the lack of SNs anywhere other than the butt. The barrel is marked Smith & Wesson with a lazy ampersand, and on the other side is marked 44 S&W SPECIAL CTG. The blue on the barrel and cylinder are a slightly different color than the frame, aside from a horrendous wear mark around the cylinder from the bolt.

It was suggested to me a few years ago on this forum by a member from Maine that he suspected mine was a 455 HE that had been converted. He had seen a lot of them where he lives that had been converted to 44 Sp when they came back into the States. My SN apparently does coincide with other 455 HEs. I bought mine from a dealer in New Hampshire, so that is not too much of a stretch.

Interesting point about the knob on the end of the extractor rod, I did not think of that. Perhaps the rod came with the cylinder. Or perhaps the entire crane was changed out.

Clearly the parts are S&W parts, but I do not think the gun left the factory with them. One of these days I really ought to letter it, just been too lazy.

Thanks for the comments, it is a pleasure to shoot. I had been looking for a 44 HE 2nd Model for some time when I came across this one, and grabbed it without thinking too much about its history.

 

[Jim G]

44 HE possible convert

Whatever the case it is a beauty. My old ugly .45 colt convert is a real tack driver as well. They sure made these guns well back then. Hope all my parts work as well when I reach 96.

 

[DCWilson]

DCWilson

Perhaps you did not notice in my earlier post, there is no SN on the barrel, cylinder, or underside of the extractor star. The only mark on the flat under the barrel is a small square, stamped into the metal. The cylinder has a similar square underneath the extractor star, and the number 25 stamped opposite the square. But the only place the SN shows up on the gun is on the bottom of the butt.

The gun was sold to me as a 44 HE 2nd Model, but I became suspicious when I realized the lack of SNs anywhere other than the butt. The barrel is marked Smith & Wesson with a lazy ampersand, and on the other side is marked 44 S&W SPECIAL CTG. The blue on the barrel and cylinder are a slightly different color than the frame, aside from a horrendous wear mark around the cylinder from the bolt.

It was suggested to me a few years ago on this forum by a member from Maine that he suspected mine was a 455 HE that had been converted. He had seen a lot of them where he lives that had been converted to 44 Sp when they came back into the States. My SN apparently does coincide with other 455 HEs. I bought mine from a dealer in New Hampshire, so that is not too much of a stretch.

Interesting point about the knob on the end of the extractor rod, I did not think of that. Perhaps the rod came with the cylinder. Or perhaps the entire crane was changed out.

Clearly the parts are S&W parts, but I do not think the gun left the factory with them. One of these days I really ought to letter it, just been too lazy.

Thanks for the comments, it is a pleasure to shoot. I had been looking for a 44 HE 2nd Model for some time when I came across this one, and grabbed it without thinking too much about its history.

Sorry, the earlier mention of unnumbered barrel and cylinder slipped by me. The serial number on the frame would have appeared both on a .455 HE/Second and a .44 HE/Second. I was just trying to explore all possibilities.

As I rethink this, I suspect you are correct that the frame was from a .455; then the gun had a barrel and cylinder transplant once it was back in the US and became the .44 that it is now.

I don't think a barrel/cylinder change would require a yoke change, so that may still be the original yoke. You could check for a serial number on the rear face of the yoke. Sometimes you can read the number through a charge hole with good side light, but you may have to remove the yoke from the gun and slide the cylinder back to see the area clearly. If you do that, don't lose the little hold-open pin in the yoke that keeps the cylinder from falling shut when you have the gun open; there's a little coil spring in there that can launch the pin five or six feet if you can't retain it. Sometimes I disassemble old guns in a shoe box or big plastic bag to trap pieces that get away from me.