bushmaster1313
Member
I think I heard that they were going to drop learning to shoot because the term "marksmanship" is not gender neutral.
Hand Grenade Training Dropped From Basic Training
- Thread starter HOUSTON RICK
- Start date
Texas Star
US Veteran
Jay, I don't know what you do in the AF, where I was a cop. But we got adequate (barely) instruction on the .38 revolver (this was in the 1960's), the night stick/club, .30 carbine, AR -15, and 12 ga. slide action shotguns. Several makes and models of shotgun were in use; I preferred the Winchester M-12.
When I got to a remote air base (radar station) in western Newfoundland, we had .45 autos and .30 carbines, no shotguns, .38's, or AR-15's. My unit had just seven Air Police (as we were called then) and some augmentees who could barely (if at all) recall the carbine training they'd had in Basic and no training on handguns.They couldn't care less, too!
Had a Soviet submarine landed Spetnaz troops, our radar station would have been a pushover! I worried some about that, as we were a vital link in the radar line to detect incoming Soviet bombers, which we called fighters down from Goose Bay to chase back out to sea almost every week. They were always probing for holes in our radar lines.
I learned to use a Colt.45 auto as a young teen and read everything that Jeff Cooper wrote. I taught our men to use and field strip those guns and if we'd had grenades, too, I'd have been happier. I learned to use grenades in Army ROTC summer camp in high school. I can't recall if the USAF taught about grenades
My son was an infantryman in Iraq and knew how to use grenades and the usual small arms, including many not taught by the Army.
I got some land nav classes somewhere, I think in Jr. ROTC and in Cub Scouts, and I bought Bjorn Kjellstrom's book telling how to use Silva compasses and I've bought several of them.
The grenade may be needed in base defense, as when the AP units on duty saved Ton Son Nhut air base in Saigon during the 1968 Tet offensive, when the enemy made a major effort to conquer S. Vietnam.
If ypu look at the citations of many Medal of Honor awards, you'll see that grenades sometimes played a part.
If you were USAF Security Forces, you might need to use grenades! You should certainly learn to do so, if possible.
One AF medic received a posthumous AF Cross for fighting alongside soldiers after he was left behind (by choice) during a heavy infantry action. He used an AR-15, a Victory Model S&W .38 and probably, grenades, in the ensuing fight in which he showed outstanding valor in both fighting and in treating the wounded while under heavy fire. Alas, he was killed.
Not all AF personnel can drop 500 lb. bombs from 10,00 feet, and a downed aircrewman needs to know the basics of ground combat. His goal is to evade, but he may have to kill enemy troops in the process.
Use of the knife in silent killing and of the garrote should be taught. I was the only AF guy I knew who'd studied the use of combat knives, having my father's copy of Col. Applegate's, Kill or Get Killed, 1944 ed.
I had lunch with Rex Applegate at the Ruger 30th Anniversary luncheon in San Antonio in 1979, during the NRA Convention. (I was a gun writer, invited by Ruger's PR man). Rex was amused when I told him how much I liked that book, of which I'd by then bought a newer edition. He joked that he certainly looked thinner then, back when he was an unarmed tactics and small arms instructor for OSS operatives.
I firmly believe that you should learn the use of the knife, the pistol, and the grenade, lest you find yourself defending an air base in Afghanistan. If the enemy is overrunning your position, those aids may be worth their weight in platinum.
USAF troops sometimes escort supply convoys in battle zones, and those convoys may come under attack. Close combat skills and tools are then vital.
I don't think grenades are obsolete in battle, at all. I hope you never have to learn that first-hand.
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bushmaster1313
Member
Land Nav
Thinking about my recently deceased WWII Vet uncles, I bought a high tech Land Nav instrument from WWII
Made by Wittnauer:
Thinking about my recently deceased WWII Vet uncles, I bought a high tech Land Nav instrument from WWII
Made by Wittnauer:
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bushmaster1313
Member
I love it!Markspersonship..HAAAAA
Maybe a badge with a rainbow on top.
I just realized that even the "Mark" is also a problem
Maybe:
Mark-Marcia Personship
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Ah, lots of stuff will get dropped from military training. The pie in the sky people are going to figure out that "They are training our youth to kill people"
Someday the Marines will get basket weaving classes instead of the rifle range if some of the day dreamers have their way.
Someday the Marines will get basket weaving classes instead of the rifle range if some of the day dreamers have their way.
vonn
US Veteran
Hand grenades are still very effective combat tools I am sure just ask any grunt with recent service,lots of good uses. GPS systems may have reduced land nav skills requirements some but old school is still important in many areas of the world I think.
Wouldn’t someone only make this mistake ONCE!!??
The "can't throw" left me flabbergasted.
In this Country of mine, many a sheppard (carrying a 12 gauge on account of wolves) would get their lunch rabbit at more than 30 yards just throwing a well aimed rock at one. 12 gauge shells were expensive.
In this Country of mine, many a sheppard (carrying a 12 gauge on account of wolves) would get their lunch rabbit at more than 30 yards just throwing a well aimed rock at one. 12 gauge shells were expensive.
I can believe it! Sad but true!
Heck we went to a restaurant he beach the other day and my Son IL was driving in his new SUV.
He wanted to plug in the GPS location into the NAV system so he could find the way!!
It is about 15 miles away, straight road, two turns! My Wife and I are in the car?? Stop at the light, turn left, there you are!???
Heck I have driven cross country and didn't even need a MAP.
Heck we went to a restaurant he beach the other day and my Son IL was driving in his new SUV.
He wanted to plug in the GPS location into the NAV system so he could find the way!!
It is about 15 miles away, straight road, two turns! My Wife and I are in the car?? Stop at the light, turn left, there you are!???
Heck I have driven cross country and didn't even need a MAP.
Lee in Quartzsite
Member
My GPS has gotten me lost more than once! Sometimes she won't stop nagging me and I end up yelling at her to just shut up!
Maps are great, get mine free from AAA, otherwise they are getting expensive. BTW, still have my Boy Scout compass.
I have my BSA compass and badges also!
The thing is we had two people in the car that have lived here for 100 years. we KNOW where the heck we are going.
The Millennial's are so dependent on their electronic gadgets it is scary. Now I use GPS on the boat, but that is finding a few square yards in the middle of nothing! But, I do not have AUTO Pilot!
TomkinsSP
Member
Ah, but you put mark first, you need an androygenous name.
And ship seems to put naval forces ahead of air or ground forces.
Chrispersonscraft
TomkinsSP
Member
...The Millennial's are so dependent on their electronic gadgets it is scary. Now I use GPS on the boat, but that is finding a few square yards in the middle of nothing! But, I do not have AUTO Pilot!
There is a story (I dont knof if its true) about a guy who is supposedly suing a GPS manufacturer because thier unit showed a boat ramp as being a bridge. And the maroon drove his car into a river.
jag312
Member
The problem with grenade training is the dental repairs. What do you mean I'm not supposed to pull the pin with my teeth? John Wayne did it all the time.
Usmc5811
US Veteran
I hope I’m long gone by then!!!
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
Bayonet...
I remember the "vertical butt stroke series" being demonstrated to us, and it was either a story told at that time, or it actually happened that a recrute asked after, seeing the full series of a vertical butt stroke to the chin of the opponent, followed by a smash to the face, then a slash across the upper body, and finally a thrust of the bayonet into the chest cavity, with needed attendant yelling, of course, "what if the guy keeps coming at you after that?" whereupon the wise drill sergeant replied, "Then son, you need to un-*** the area, because you've got no business messing with a man like that!!
I remember the "vertical butt stroke series" being demonstrated to us, and it was either a story told at that time, or it actually happened that a recrute asked after, seeing the full series of a vertical butt stroke to the chin of the opponent, followed by a smash to the face, then a slash across the upper body, and finally a thrust of the bayonet into the chest cavity, with needed attendant yelling, of course, "what if the guy keeps coming at you after that?" whereupon the wise drill sergeant replied, "Then son, you need to un-*** the area, because you've got no business messing with a man like that!!
Usmc5811
US Veteran
When I went through the grenade toss class there was a thick wall with several small portholes to see through. Recruits were on one side of the wall and on either side of where you stood there were pits about 5’ deep. Your instructor was the only other person near you. If the recruit dropped the grenade it would fall in one of the pits and you and your instructor would dive in the other one.
I never saw any recruits drop one, but there was shrapnel marks in the pits. I can’t imagine how long you would have been quarterdecked in the sand pit for dropping one.
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This post reminded my of something else, when we did gas mask training, they taught us how to put them on quickly, etc. and then then had us put them on and walk through a building with tear gas in the air. If you had your mask on correctly, you did fine if not, well you know what happened. Then we went outside for some other training and they had us sitting in some bleachers. During the training , they threw tear gas under the bleachers and the mad scramble for the masks started. I was wearing my glasses and in the panic, tried to get my mask on over them. It took quite awhile and a lot of eye washing to see again. The drill sergeant said "the enemy isn't going to tell you when he's going to attack, pay attention at all times". Ah, the good ole days !
Lee in Quartzsite
Member
The Millennial's are so dependent on their electronic gadgets it is scary. Now I use GPS on the boat, but that is finding a few square yards in the middle of nothing! But, I do not have AUTO Pilot!
At least the US Navy is going back to sextants so that they have a backup to GPS. The navigator in my aircrew always used a sextant to verify our position because the Loran was known to be unreliable. Just hope the Navy doesn't bump into any more ships.....
Naval Academy reinstates celestial navigation
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