"Handguns and Defensive Weapons"

[Lon C.]

Hello Everyone,

As a new shooter [3 years +/-], I have noticed the proliferation of firearm programs on the Outdoor Channel & the Sportsman Channel. The above [a new program to me] was on yesterday with the subject of handgun recoil management.

Three gents on the screen, Rich, Scott and Jim discussed the subject as regards to defensive carry. Each admitted that they shoot .38 spcl and/or +P; none favor .357 at all, because of recoil issue; best to have three hits w/.38 than one w/.357, or so they said.

I take my R8 to the range and have very little problem managing recoil with 158 gr .357 JHP. Believe me, it's the firearm---not my expertise! I'm a resident of Ca., so I do not carry.

Obviously, I'm not under any duress or in a adrenaline-pumping/defensive position at the range, but they weren't either; just three guys in a discussion at the range.

So, may I ask you folks who have a tremendous experience advantage over me?

First question: do you favor their conclusion; that is, preferring .38 over .357?

Second question, how do you manage recoil with your favorite firearm, revolver or semi-auto?

Many thanks for taking the time to respond!

Lon C.

 

[Laketime]

For the hearing loss alone, I'll favor the .38 special.

 

[Ribwizzard]

Good topic. I shoot a lot of .357, and have never had an issue with it.
But you always here about recoil, 12g, 30-06, .308, 357 and .44
I just recently purchased my first .44 magnum. If I had listened to all the YouTube and forum experts, I should have expected my wrist to snap and my hand go slinging off by my 50th round. But I found it very easy to shoot, blasted 200 rounds of 240 g magnums and my hand was still there. Yes, I could tell I just shot 200 r, but there was no pain.
And just last Sunday, I grabbed a box of .38 and .357 and took my new 28-2 to the range to try it out. Shot all 100, most single handed. Then went out to the lobby and while looking at guns, another shooter with s kimber .357 revolver starts talking about what a cannon it is and how painful it is to shoot .357. The guy was a all pumped up weightbuilder looking dude. When I told him I shoot .357 in my little model 60 with no problem, he was looking at me like I was fibbing about it.
All I can think is that these guys have never swung a 10lb hammer, or ran a 1" impact wrench, or a jack hammer or w if whatever in their life.

 

[Cal44]

The R8 is a big gun with a full sized grip. Weighs about 36 oz. And a 5" barrel.

The revolver CCW guys probably are talking about carrying 357 or 38+P in small, J frame snubs.

The guns have 2" barrels. They weigh anywhere from 11 to 21 oz.

That's a big differences.

Much easier to shoot 357 in a bigger gun. Likely 357 Mag in an R8 recoils less than 38+P in a J frame snub.

 

[Ribwizzard]

So yes, .357 is what I carry and shoot mostly. I'll grab some .38 if they are cheap and have fun shooting, but they are different point of aim and I'd rather practice with what I will load for action with.
.38 is not something I'd trust my life to,

 

[Old cop]

I had to use my issued .38 three times during my 30 year career so I know it works, and I also know you will not be aware of recoil in a deadly confrontation. That said managing follow up shots is important, and to me the .357 is too difficult to handle in that situation but my EDC is an 11 ounce 340PD. Handling the recoil of a mangum at the range is much different from shooting to save your life on the street.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Haven't seen the show you're talking about, but I'll offer my opinion based on what you've reported.

Likely, they were talking about carry guns, meaning guns lightweight and compact enough to conceal easily. Which also means guns that are likely smaller and lighter than your R8. The lighter, smaller the gun gets, the more recoil it's going to generate, given the same ammo.

Other factors...carry guns will likely have shorter barrels. This means one will likely get more muzzle flash and/or blast shooting magnums than specials. That can make quick follow-up shots more difficult, which can be important in self defense shootings.

Some people will say you won't feel the recoil in a real defensive shooting incident. However, given the same gun, magnums will generate more recoil than specials. It's physics. Therefore, magnums will generally be slower on follow-up shots than specials.

Add to that real-world evidence that pretty much all service handgun calibers perform about the same in actual shootings and any power advantage the .357 Magnum has over .38 Special diminishes.

I should mention I'm talking about full-power .357 Magnum loads, as there are mid-range loads that are very good options, but they get closer to .38 Special ballistics so the power advantage gets even smaller.

Beyond that, it's personal choice. Some people just prefer to go ahead and load full-power .357 Magnum ammo in their lightweight snubs, and that's a perfectly fine option if they can shoot it well. For me, I see no reason to use .357 Magnum ammo in a carry gun until we're getting up into K-frame, and bigger, steel guns, and even then I'd probably still go with .38 Special +Ps. In fact, when I had a 3" 65, it was often kept loaded with .38 Special FBI loads.

As far as recoil management...

I generally grip as high on the frame as I can, exception being the Centennial J-frames, like the 642 I EDC. With those guns, gripping high up affects the angle of my trigger finger and makes shooting a little more difficult.

With semi-autos, I tend to use the "thumbs-forward" grip. With revolvers I use the "thumb-over-thumb" grip. Of course, this is when shooting two-handed. When shooting one-handed I lock my thumb down and cant the gun to the inside a bit.

I grip the gun as hard as I can, then back off until the shaking stops. I grip with my shooting hand with front-to-back pressure. I like to visualize my fingers and the heel of my palm as the jaws of a vise or C-clamp pressing on the frontstrap and backstrap, respectively. I do the same with my support hand, but apply the pressure side-to-side. I apply equal pressure with both hands when shooting two-handed.

I don't like the term "stance" since it suggests maintaining a static position, which may not be the best choice in a defensive encounter. But I do use an Isoceles/fighting "stance," where my upper body and arms form an Isoceles triangle, elbows slightly bent, pointing at the target, while my left foot is forward, my right foot is back, and I lean slightly forward from the waist (think the way your upper body leans slightly forward when you step up onto stairs). This position is ideal, but it's a good idea to practice from different positions when possible, even better if it can be done while moving.

Lots of options/answers when it comes to recoil management. Some may be better than others for some people/situations. Try different methods, experiment, and figure out which options work for you, ideally with the help of a qualified instructor (or instructors).

 

[31FordA]

I carry .357 in my SP-101, and generally only shoot .357 from it in practice. The recoil has never been a problem for me, and that combination of gun and ammo works best for me. My 340 M&P is loaded with .38+P because, having shot .38 and .357 in it, I find I perform better with .38+P in that gun. My K frame .357s are loaded with .38+P because it's better for the gun.

In general I have never had an issue with recoil. The only time I found recoil to be genuinely unpleasant was firing hot Buffalo Bore .45 Colt from my Alaskan. I managed a good group, but five rounds was enough for a lifetime.

 

[Lon C.]

The R8 is a big gun with a full sized grip. Weighs about 36 oz. And a 5" barrel.

The revolver CCW guys probably are talking about carrying 357 or 38+P in small, J frame snubs.

The guns have 2" barrels. They weigh anywhere from 11 to 21 oz.

That's a big differences.

Much easier to shoot 357 in a bigger gun. Likely 357 Mag in an R8 recoils less than 38+P in a J frame snub.

Cal44,

Point taken. I was remiss in mentioning that they were indeed, speaking of smaller revolvers. One mentioned was a Taurus 605 .38 spcl. The other revolver mentioned was a S&W 360 Airweight, Scandium frame, w/.357 loads.

"Scott", the smaller of the two on the show [maybe 5'-7" 150 pounds] said, "...you really gotta hold on to that sucker [S&W 360]. I mean..." It was apparent, after watching the show again, that Scott was much more comfortable shooting .38 than the .357 loads.

I'm 6'-1" 195 pounds by comparison.

 

[Lon C.]

Haven't seen the show you're talking about, but I'll offer my opinion based on what you've reported.

Likely, they were talking about carry guns, meaning guns lightweight and compact enough to conceal easily. Which also means guns that are likely smaller and lighter than your R8. The lighter, smaller the gun gets, the more recoil it's going to generate, given the same ammo.

Other factors...carry guns will likely have shorter barrels. This means one will likely get more muzzle flash and/or blast shooting magnums than specials. That can make quick follow-up shots more difficult, which can be important in self defense shootings.

Some people will say you won't feel the recoil in a real defensive shooting incident. However, given the same gun, magnums will generate more recoil than specials. It's physics. Therefore, magnums will generally be slower on follow-up shots than specials.

Add to that real-world evidence that pretty much all service handgun calibers perform about the same in actual shootings and any power advantage the .357 Magnum has over .38 Special diminishes.

I should mention I'm talking about full-power .357 Magnum loads, as there are mid-range loads that are very good options, but they get closer to .38 Special ballistics so the power advantage gets even smaller.

Beyond that, it's personal choice. Some people just prefer to go ahead and load full-power .357 Magnum ammo in their lightweight snubs, and that's a perfectly fine option if they can shoot it well. For me, I see no reason to use .357 Magnum ammo in a carry gun until we're getting up into K-frame, and bigger, steel guns, and even then I'd probably still go with .38 Special +Ps. In fact, when I had a 3" 65, it was often kept loaded with .38 Special FBI loads.

As far as recoil management...

I generally grip as high on the frame as I can, exception being the Centennial J-frames, like the 642 I EDC. With those guns, gripping high up affects the angle of my trigger finger and makes shooting a little more difficult.

With semi-autos, I tend to use the "thumbs-forward" grip. With revolvers I use the "thumb-over-thumb" grip. Of course, this is when shooting two-handed. When shooting one-handed I lock my thumb down and cant the gun to the inside a bit.

I grip the gun as hard as I can, then back off until the shaking stops. I grip with my shooting hand with front-to-back pressure. I like to visualize my fingers and the heel of my palm as the jaws of a vise or C-clamp pressing on the frontstrap and backstrap, respectively. I do the same with my support hand, but apply the pressure side-to-side. I apply equal pressure with both hands when shooting two-handed.

I don't like the term "stance" since it suggests maintaining a static position, which may not be the best choice in a defensive encounter. But I do use an Isoceles/fighting "stance," where my upper body and arms form an Isoceles triangle, elbows slightly bent, pointing at the target, while my left foot is forward, my right foot is back, and I lean slightly forward from the waist (think the way your upper body leans slightly forward when you step up onto stairs). This position is ideal, but it's a good idea to practice from different positions when possible, even better if it can be done while moving.

Lots of options/answers when it comes to recoil management. Some may be better than others for some people/situations. Try different methods, experiment, and figure out which options work for you, ideally with the help of a qualified instructor (or instructors).

Continental10p,

I'm enclosing the link for the show; regrettably, I do not see the availability of watching the episode, on the website. It is, however, to be shown once again on July 31st @ 2:30 P.M., as you can see on the website face page.

Handguns and Defensive Weapons | Sportsman Channel

 

[ExcitableBoy]

First question: do you favor their conclusion; that is, preferring .38 over .357?

Second question, how do you manage recoil with your favorite firearm, revolver or semi-auto?

Lon C.

To answer Q1: Shoot whatever you are comfortable and proficient with. If .357s in a snub don't make you run away crying, more power to you. Personally, they don't bother me a bit. Their conclusions are only a personal preference and a matter of comfort for them.

Q2: Comfortable stocks that fit well, and a proper grip, make recoil manageable, and even enjoyable, with almost any handgun, at least for me, and I am not a big guy, at 5' 8" and 160 lbs. However, I will admit that I have no desire to shoot anything stiffer than .44 mag in a handgun, as I really have no need to.

 

[fredj338]

Recoil management is learned. If you never learn, then yes less recoil is better for faster follow up shots. Shoot a 357mag enough to learn it, you'll find split times only slightly slower. Nothing wrong with a 158gr lswchp +p load in a snub or 4" revo though. Same for semi rds too btw, 9mm vs 40 or 45.
BTW, living in Kalif doesn't mean you can't ccw, just depends on what county you live in.

 

[Matt C.]

.357 in a steel gun recoil is manageable (145 gr. Silvertips).

In an Airweight? I'll pass.

 

[REM 3200]

Recoil aside, If you are talking about a defensive hand gun, realize the possibility of having to shoot at night. Night vision most likely will be lost due to the muzzle and cylinder gap flash from a .357 Mag. See the attached pictures.

 

[grinner]

Hello Everyone,

I take my R8 to the range and have very little problem managing recoil with 158 gr .357 JHP. Believe me, it's the firearm---not my expertise! I'm a resident of Ca., so I do not carry.

Obviously, I'm not under any duress or in a adrenaline-pumping/defensive position at the range, but they weren't either; just three guys in a discussion at the range.

So, may I ask you folks who have a tremendous experience advantage over me?

First question: do you favor their conclusion; that is, preferring .38 over .357?

Second question, how do you manage recoil with your favorite firearm, revolver or semi-auto?

Many thanks for taking the time to respond!

Lon C.

Your R8 is an N-frame and will easily absorb much of the .357 Magnum recoil. My TRR8 handles them easily. My 20 ounce j-frame? Not so much. I’ve shot .357 Magnum through it, but didn’t like it. I only shoot .38 +p through it now. That’s probably the type of carry gun they were talking about, definitely NOT an N-frame.

Concerning recoil management, I just accept it and have learned what the gun does when I fire it. It don’t try to fight it or anticipate — that leads to flinching and poor accuracy.

Keep shooting your R8 the way you have and don’t worry about it!

 

[BAM-BAM]

An interesting aside; recently Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn did a Wilson Combat video (Gun Guys Episode 8) about why they have transitioned from .45s to 9mm autos.

Both guys are I'd guess now in their 60s and both talk about the impact of age, arthritis and years of shooting tens of thousands of rounds of full power .45 has had on their hands.

FWIW I've been in the +P.38 and 9mm for carry loads for at least the last 29 years....... I prefer/train to deliver a fast double/triple tap. That said I do carry .357s when wondering around in Penn's Woods.

 

[TomkinsSP]

When I was a young whelp who (1) knew next to nothing and (2) had read a lot so he THOUGHT he knew a lot. The Department had a strict "NO! .357" policy.

Older, wiser Officers took me under thier wing and TAUGHT ME HOW TO SHOOT (by which I mean consistently hit the target). The reality of physics is that hitting the exact same spot with a .38 LHBWC or a .38+P LSWCHC or a .357 LSJ which exited a 1 7/8" barrel. The difference in tissue damage is going to be both incremental and minimal. It is much better for your team to have a third accurate hit with .38 than to have that minimal increase in damage.

 

[MetalMan]

Recoil aside, If you are talking about a defensive hand gun, realize the possibility of having to shoot at night. Night vision most likely will be lost due to the muzzle and cylinder gap flash from a .357 Mag. See the attached pictures.

Wow!!!!

Great photos!

I'll stick to .38 and .38 +p in my SD guns, thank you very much.....

 

[Mister X]

The only revolvers I have any use for are lightweight snubs and .38 special makes much more sense to me based on recoil management for follow-up shots, noise and blast, risk of crimp jump and compared ballistics. I would still opt for .38 special even in larger revolvers.

There's a good chance you'll be shooting one-handed in an actual defense scenario. We see this occurring on the numerous video footage we have of real-life shootings. Most civilian violent encounters occur at extremely close-quarters distances and you may want or need to have that free hand up for defense, but also to move. It's usually not a good idea to stand still while someone is trying to harm you no matter what form of attack they are using and it is simply relatively difficult to move dynamically with any kind of efficiency with two hands on the gun.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Tomkins makes a great point.................

While in Competition shooting and even when qualifying (there was still a competition among the troops for the highest score and X count/ even though anything inside the 8 ring was 'good") we strive for small/tight groups....... in ''reality" 3 shots spread over a grapefruit size (center of mass) area will have a greater effect.