HBWC seating depth.

[Kiwi cop]

I have always loaded my HBWC, both lead and plated, to the same recommended cartridge OAL length as RN and SWC loads.

My reasoning has been that while the hollow base allows more space in the loaded round, the HBWC projectiles are longer, and therefore seated a bit deeper, into the case.

This week I was on the range shooting alongside a club member. His HBWC's were loaded to be flush with the case mouth.

Now, he was shooting well below minimum recommended charges, 2.6 gn W231 where the Hodgson manual lists a starting load of 3.5 gn, so the reduced case capacity probably would not raise pressures too high, but it made me wonder, where does everyone seat their HBWC'S?

 

[Model52guy]

I always seat mine flush with the case mouth with a slight roll crimp. The HBWC shoot the most accurate in my Model 52's but I also shoot them in revolvers.

 

[colt_saa]

Flush to the case mouth is correct for that projectile. You do a very light roll crimp over the front edge of the projectile

Here is the current factory image for Federal HBWC ammunition

Image courtesy of Federal Ammunition​

 

[robertrwalsh]

Flush or very slightly below the mouth of the case with a modest roll crimp.

 

[GypsmJim]

I'm totally cornfused here. What is "recommended cartridge length"?

For any caliber, there are many different types and sizes of potential bullets. Many have a cannelure, so one knows what the proper length is for that one. For straight walled bullets, one would refer to the "Max cartridge length" for guidance.

I once saw a newby reloader make a batch of wadcutters and he set the bullets at the Max length. Hardly any lead left to crimp and they shot horribly. Never saw a wadcutter that wasn't flush.

 

[Protocall_Design]

On a M52, they need to be flush with the case mouth. If they are sticking out any, they will hang up in the magazine and not feed well.

 

[rwsmith]

Update: Been a while since I loaded HBWCs.....

...but I've loaded them flush and also with a small portion out on the idea that there'd be less jump to the forcing cone. I had some Speer bevel base WCs that had a crimping groove about 3/16" back that I used. I wasn't good enough with the 2" model 10 I was using at the time to determine if there was any accuracy improvement with any of the loads, though.

Oh, one thing that I DID do at the time was load and shoot a LOT of WCs with 2.8 gr. of Bullseye. Many with my Lee Loaders.

Update: I just loaded a bunch of .38s and .357s with Missouri Bullets double ended wadcutters. They have grooves about 1/16" from each end. I put a little crimp into the grooves.

 

[socal s&w]

I load the LHBWC's about a thumbnail thickness above the case mouth. This allows for a good-mild crimp on the side of the bullet helping the friction of the case/bullet hold it tight.
I also use 2.7grs of Bullseye, 2.9grs of 231.
Of course, I also trim my brass (WW only) to the same length so there is consistency in the seating depth.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Never heard of loading a wadcutter the same OAL as a RN or SWC...

What source was that load data from?

Cheers!

 

[Kiwi cop]

Never heard of loading a wadcutter the same OAL as a RN or SWC...

What source was that load data from?

Cheers!

It came about by not adjusting the seating die when changing from SWC in .38 Special.

Obviously the wrong thing to do.

 

[taz666]

Surprised they chambered.

 

[mtgianni]

I'm totally cornfused here. What is "recommended cartridge length"?

For any caliber, there are many different types and sizes of potential bullets. Many have a cannelure, so one knows what the proper length is for that one. For straight walled bullets, one would refer to the "Max cartridge length" for guidance.

I once saw a newby reloader make a batch of wadcutters and he set the bullets at the Max length. Hardly any lead left to crimp and they shot horribly. Never saw a wadcutter that wasn't flush.

Most reloading manuals state a cartridge over all length. OAL.

 

[gwpercle]

The soft commerical HBWC gets a flush seating and light roll crimp ...
just like the factory loads .

My cast 148 gr. solid based Wadcutters (like Lee 358-148-WC) have a crimp groove right below the top most driving band ... and on these I put a light roll crimp in that groove ... accuracy seems to be as good or better .

I measure nothing as far as length ... I'm so Old School it hurt's !

Here is the magic Accuracy part ... 2.7 grs Bullseye
Try from 2.5 grs to 3.0 grs. Bullseye to see what your gun likes ...
Mine all seem to love 2.7 grs Bullseye ...
15 shots will make one ragged hole 1 1/2" wide @ 25 yards !

Gary

 

[STORMINORMAN]

It came about by not adjusting the seating die when changing from SWC in .38 Special.

Obviously the wrong thing to do.

So, 1st back the seating die off enough to preclude any crimp.

Than adjust the seating stem to seat the wadcutter almost flush with the case rim. Seat all your bullets.

Then back off the seating stem and now adjust the crimp according to your preference. Most typical wadcutter loads (i.e., 2.7gr Bullseye) don't really need a full, heavy crimp (plus it just wears out the brass prematurely) with all that bullet area in contact with the brass.

I admit this adds another step to the reloading process and most seating dies CAN be adjusted to do this all in one step, but... Hopefully the goal is to produce the best possible reloads.

Or just get a LEE Factory Crimp die (which may also take care of any unintentional problems vis-a-vis any bulged cases, which is a whole 'nother
story...).

Cheers!

 

[27 Man]

A couple of years ago I bought a box of 500 plated WCs that weigh 148 grains. I have always loaded 2.7 BE with a HBWC. However, being plated I am told that charge of BE could stick one in the bore. What are the thoughts of the group regarding a charge of BE?

 

[STORMINORMAN]

A couple of years ago I bought a box of 500 plated WCs that weigh 148 grains. I have always loaded 2.7 BE with a HBWC. However, being plated I am told that charge of BE could stick one in the bore. What are the thoughts of the group regarding a charge of BE?

Shouldn't be a problem: Xtreme's load data manual for their plated wadcutter shows about 750fps with three different powders (none are Bullseye, unfortunately) but anything going 700+ fps isn't likely to stick a bullet in a pistol length barrel. Berrys site doesn't mention anything different about using common load data.

When you get down to the so-called "mousefart" loads it might make a difference, but... Why go there?

You can always add a couple 10th of a grain if you are truly concerned.

Cheers!

P.S. Who told you that the difference between plated and lead wadcutters is of that kind of degree, anyway?

 

[Jebus35745]

I seat them just out of the case maybe 1/16 - 1/8, just enough for a crimp to grab. They shoot out of the Mid Range Colt just fine with 3.0 gr of 231. Revolver loads are easy to shoot recoil wise, Larry

 

[Green Frog]

Just my practice, I seat HBWCs and DEWCs flush with the case mouth. This was necessary for Model 52s and my old Short cylinder PPC gun. I do have one 32 mould that is meant to be loaded with the top (bearing) ring above the case mouth, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Cartridge overall length is a measure for other types of bullets, so they don't exceed cylinder length in revolvers or mag length in autos. It also becomes important in some rifle cartridges for various reasons not Germaine to this discussion.

Froggie

 

[Greyman50]

For my Colt Mid Range seated just below case length and it would shoot better than I could hold. For wheel guns does not matter that much. Load and shoot mostly double end WC for wheel guns.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

.38 Special .358 swaged lead HBWC - factory style projectiles - are generally loaded flush with the case mouth and just enough crimp to remove case flare. Depending on brand they generally don't have a crimp groove. These bullets produce the best accuracy seated in this manner, and are loaded to mild pressures.

Seating these to the OAL of a RNL or SWC might make for difficult chambering.

Factory swaged lead BBWC - haven't seen these in decades - or cast DEWC can be loaded similarly, but are most often loaded to the provided crimping groove, leaving a small portion of the head of the bullet exposed. The crimp applied is light. These are loaded to mild or moderate pressures. "Full charge" BBWC used to be a factory load many many moons ago... they were not highly accurate and often leaded bores.

The modern handloader can load cast DEWC bullets to higher velocity (800-900 fps) than mild HBWC loads, and also have good accuracy.

Bullseye is an old school choice of propellant. More modern and available gun powders do the same or better accuracy-wise. These include HP38/Win231, Titegroup, 700-X and Clays.

 

[GypsmJim]

Most reloading manuals state a cartridge over all length. OAL.

That's the MAXIMUM length. Any longer than that and it will stick out the front of the cylinder, or won't fit an autoloader chamber.

If you shoot a very light boolit, you can never get even close to that.

We are talking about PROPER length here, and there is no manual that can specify that, unless its for a specific boolit.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Many years ago I tried the Speer HBwc in my model 19 with a long OAL of 1.20".

It did no better in accuracy, so I kept all my HBwc at flush OAL, in case they saw M52 use.

I will set the BBwc a little longer if I need more powder in the case, for special loads.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

My HBWC's are loaded to be flush with the case mouth.

I shot PPC so I have reload a ton or so of lead.

 

[Model52guy]

I trim all my M52 38 spec brass to 1.145" Needed for the model 52. I use older nickel brass as it is easy to pick up at the range. Not many people shoot nickel 38 brass. I have a Dillon 450RL set up just to do `38 wade cutter ammo. I normally use 3.2 gr Winchester 231 or HP 38 for my loads but 2.7 bullseye is just as good.

 

[pasound]

I set all my HBWC and BBWC loads flush with the case mouth. Have been seeing if my Lee factory taper crimp die does a better job than a roll crimp while seating. So far, not noticing any difference in accuracy. My favorite is also 3.2gr of 231. When that runs out, 2.7 of Bullseye.

 

[glenwolde]

I'm not sure why you would load them to LRN or LSWC OAL when Hodgdon lists an OAL for the .38 wadcutter. 1.160. Which is pretty much flush.

The Hodgdon load data makes no sense to me. The 158 LSWC is listed at 3.1 to 3.7 of W231 while the 148 gr HBWC is listed at 3.5 to 4.0 of W231. Considering the small difference in weight and the depth of the wadcutter it doesn't seem to make sense. Look at the charge weights in Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th.

I've always used 3.0gr of W231 with the HBWC seated flush and 4.0gr of W231 with the LSWC.

 

[H Richard]

I always loaded my .38's just a visible line above case mouth, and used a taper crimp of .003. That and 3.0 gr 231 proved very accurate in my 52 as well as all my revolvers.

 

[Green Frog]

Many years ago I tried the Speer HBwc in my model 19 with a long OAL of 1.20".

It did no better in accuracy, so I kept all my HBwc at flush OAL, in case they saw M52 use.

I will set the BBwc a little longer if I need more powder in the case, for special loads.

Agreed, Ed. When I decided to go more "real life" in PPC, I was quick to change from HBWCs to SWCs to shoot from my tuned Model 66 ND. Those tapered noses went into the chambers a lot quicker with my Safariland Speed Loaders! Accuracy in the PPC situation (and in my hands) in the M 66 was comparable with both bullets.
Froggie

 

[Forrest r]

Agreed, Ed. When I decided to go more "real life" in PPC, I was quick to change from HBWCs to SWCs to shoot from my tuned Model 66 ND. Those tapered noses went into the chambers a lot quicker with my Safariland Speed Loaders! Accuracy in the PPC situation (and in my hands) in the M 66 was comparable with both bullets.
Froggie

+1^^^^^^^^^

Not a hbwc and a little thread drift. Was hard to beat the accuracy and ease of loading the old lyman 358311 158gr cast rn bullet. Used/shot countless 1000's of them in different 38spl's and 357mags.

 

[Forrest r]

some people have loaded wadcutters like that to alleviate fear of chamber jumping having an impact.

Its also fun when you use the older powder loading data

Or:

Looking for accuracy, a 220gr hbwc that I cast for the 44cal's.

A s&w 624 44spl that I tested those cast 220gr hbwc's in. Tested:
seated/crimped flush
seated/crimped top lube groove
seated/crimped bottom lube groove
The same seating combos with both lube grooves lubed. 1 lube groove lubed. Tumble lubed & both lube grooves lubed + tumble lube.

The throats in the leade's of the cylinders were .431". I sized the bullets to .430" so that the bullet would sit in those leade's if need be.

Couldn't even count how many 1000's of the cast h&g # 50's I loaded/shot that were sized to .357". Lubed only 1 lube groove and seated/crimped them long, in the middle lube groove.

Doing this gave me the same seating depth/case volume as using the lyman 358477 or the cramer #26.

Once I found an accurate load for the 38spl or 357mag using any of those bullets. They all could be used for the same load give the same excellent accuracy.