Help diagnose first failures with 3913

scwv67

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
961
Reaction score
350
Location
SW Ohio
I've had my 3913 for about two years now, and among the many things I like about it is the fact that it has never, ever failed to perform in any way.

That changed today when I stopped off at the range. I had multiple failures to feed where the round wouldn't fully chamber and the slide wouldn't go totally into battery.

Either dropping the mag or a little thumb pressure on the slide would correct it. This occurred with three different mags and two types of ammo.

FWIW, the recoil spring only has about 1K rounds through it and all mag springs are nearly new. Because the pistol and ammo were locked in my trunk while at work, both were cold, but I don't think that should've affected anything.

I will say I had one similar stoppage last week with my nearly new SD9VE.

Ideas?
 
Register to hide this ad
The first things that come to mind are... How cold was it? and...
What kind of lubricant was on the rails?

Certain lubes, typically mineral based, will solidify in the cold and essentially glue your slide to the frame. Synthetic based lubes are more resistant to gumming up in the cold.

From what you described It sounds like something is slowing/dragging on the slide on it's way returning to battery.

First thing I'd try is clean thoroughly then lube sparingly with a light synthetic based lubricant along the lines of FP-10 or Rem Oil. Then go for another test drive.

Cheers
Bill
 
Temp in low 30's today. TW25 is the lube.

I'll definitely clean it up and try again in a day or two though.
 
My 439 did the same thing bacK in the summer, it was because of the ammo. Best of luck.
 
When was the last time the lubricant was applied?

TW25B grease or oil? (I often use the Mil-Comm grease, but more often use FP10, Break-Free or Militec-1.) I've seen my fair share of folks who caused themselves feeding stoppage & chambering problems by both under & over-applying lubes, as well as not applying it in the most optimal spots.

What was the ammo?

Low temps and temp changes cause condensation, which isn't a good thing when it comes to mixing with lubes.

FWIW, most of the feeding/chambering issues I've seen happen to folks with too-lightly-applied lubrication, especially in cold/damp weather conditions (outside quals) generally seems to start happening after the first 2-3 mag loads, when the guns start to heat up.
 
Fastbolt,

It was the TW25b white grease. It was applied a few weeks ago, at room temperature, after a range session cleaning. Ammo was Federal AE 115, and Blazer Brass 124.

The range rental M&P9c had no issues with same ammo. I should note that while the pistol was in my car at work, it was an inside range. I can't remember if I experienced the problem on the firing of the first mag or not, but definitely by the second.

For there on, with all three mags, I had a least one or two problems. The last time I fired it, about five or six rounds out of eight needed persuasion to fully chamber.
 
The thing about applying grease, even a lightweight synthetic like Mil-Comm's, is that you have to put it everywhere you want it to go. It doesn't migrate like an oil. (It may be spread, but it doesn't migrate like liquids.)

I rub a dab around the outside of the barrel, starting at the muzzle and going back to the front of the barrel lug, leaving the exterior surface shiny, but no white clumps.

I apply it to the tops & sides of the frame rails, making sure it's present on all 4 of the frame rail surfaces (top, side & underneath of the outermost rail and then within the lowermost rail cut). Also a dab on the front dustcover rails. Finger tip, and maybe a good cotton swab (which doesn't leave material behind), to get into the recessed rails.

A small drop/dab of lube to the guide rod. I usually use what remains on the tip of my finger after lubing the barrel, rubbing it around the rod body, but a small drop or dab, rubbed around the rod body, also works.

The top/front edge of the barrel hood, where it drops beneath the ejection port is another lube point, as are each side of the lower part of the hammer where it rubs within the frame. These are light lube points. (You don't want "rivers" of oil running down the sides of the hammer, inside the frame, where it can attract fouling and debris inside the frame. ;) )

I sometimes apply a very small dab on each of the frame's angled camming shoulders, where the barrel lugs to either side of the feedramp run down & up during unlocking & locking. Not a lot. (Not a normal lube spot, but I like to try and reduce friction & potential excessive wear & tear & peening with a little grease at that spot on aluminum frames. Sometimes, not always.)

Briskly hand cycling the slide a few times lets the lube get in the slide rails, and any excess that oozes out the back where the frame & slide rails meet (and on top of the barrel hood) can be wiped away.

Being a long time 1911 shooter, I sometimes mix a drop or 2 of an oil-type lube on the greased barrel and frame rails, creating a sort of slurry of lubricant. It can be messy if you go overboard, though.

One thing we were cautioned against in another company's armorer recert last year was that mixing any remaining solvent with an oil can create a gummy, sticky result which isn't good for lubrication. Best not leave any residue of solvent after cleaning (if you use a solvent).

I've often observed that cleaning & lubrication practices can open the door to a lot of different interpretations and definitions of words. I've seen some shooters use microscopic drops of oil, and others squirt and pour lube onto their guns, literally slathering and drenching their guns in it. :eek:

I liked the way SIG stated it in their armorer class for their classic line of pistols (haven't gone to one for their newer plastic models). They said that a properly applied lubricant ought to be able to be confirmed by being able to see it (shiny surface), and touch it (feel it on your finger tip).

I didn't ask before, but have you cleaned your 3913 since the last range session? If not, field-strip the EMPTY gun and check the frame rails and exterior of the barrel. If you can't confirm the presence of sufficient lube/grease by sight & touch, and spots of rails seem dry, you may not have applied enough the last time.

FWIW, combining lower velocity 'budget' loads with a cold (damp/condensing surfaces) gun, that may be running a bit light on lube, probably isn't the best of combinations. ;)
 
Last edited:
Fastbolt, what is a better lube for 3rd gen Smiths? Grease or Break Free CLP?
 
I usually don't push any particular product. After all, we may not always be cleaning & lubing at our own benches.

I usually suggest people consider the conditions where they're going to be carrying & using the pistols, and how often they're going to be going between cleanings.

I've had some oil-type lubes dry out, wick/run off and evaporate more quickly than I expected.

Greases will often remain where you put them, longer, being resistant to wicking & running. However, some are harder or softer than others. They can also sometimes require more attention and care in applying them (directly where you want them). Then, there's the risk of having them accumulate any sand, grit or debris and turning into an unintended, improvised lapping compound.

If an oil-type lube thins, wicks, runs off (under gravity) or dries too quickly, it may require more frequent reapplication than a good grease.

Using a separate products for cleaning & lubrication may, or may not, be something that suits someone's maintenance practices. Ditto using a combination CLP product.

Just depends.

Nothing wrong with considering using less toxic products, either, or something that smells less obnoxious. Read the labels.

I've tried all manner of products, from the days of the simple solvents & gun oil in JC Penney, Sears or Wards cleaning kits, to 3-in-1 oil or sewing machine oil ... and more of the ever newer products than I could hope to remember. I still sometimes surprise myself by finding some bottle, jar or tube of something tucked away in some old supplies that I'd forgotten I'd owned. ;)

In answer to your specific question, though (in case you thought I'd forgot) ... Break-Free for more frequently cleaned & lubed guns, and grease for guns going longer between cleanings, or used in climates and conditions where moisture and temperature varies a lot (as long as sand isn't getting in the works).

I often find myself cleaning & lubing my own guns at the agency range, instead of my home bench. In that case, I often use either Break-Free (it's what we've got for CLP, coming in large jugs/bottles), or sometimes TW25B grease (one of 2 greases that's ordered at different times, by different people). If it's Break-Free, I'll probably end up checking to confirm its presence, and often reapplying it, within a month or two (or three, or so on). I tend to dislike the other grease for my own use simply because it's thicker and harder, making it more tedious to apply.

While I don't usually shill any specific products, I do tend to shy away from the latest flavor of wonder lube (or snake oil) being bandied about the internet, or using automotive products that haven't been specifically tested for firearms, meaning for 'open' use on equipment constantly being handled (and on exposed skin & clothing). Not saying it won't work, just don't like being a guinea pig (safety exposure) or smelling like an oil rack.

Lots of good quality products out to be found.

I think my bench and armorer kit presently has a varying combination of FP10, Break-Free, TW25B grease, Wilson Ultima grease (had it for years - makes me wonder if it's somehow self-replenishing :confused:) ... and some really slippery stuff marketed under the S&W name (some shimmery, white liquid goo that's more slippery than duck snot and doesn't smell like anything I've ever before used). Other stuff in cabinets and downstairs.

The gun companies have usually avoided making specific recommendations in my armorer classes ... except for SIG, where the instructor said the company really liked TW25B. They must, because the last time I was using some NIB SIG's, they'd applied enough of it to each pistol to lubricate a dozen or more guns. :)

The other classes have generally recommended using any of the modern high quality products specifically sold for use on firearms, as well as considering any specific operating and/or environmental conditions in which duty weapons will be used (leaving it up to armorers to make their own informed decisions).
 
Last edited:
Fastbolt,

I'd already cleaned the pistol after the range session looking for anything amiss with regards to wear or abnormal amounts of accumulated crud. No issues seen.

While I'm not stingy when applying lube, I've never ran my 3rd Gens. "wet" either. I'll break it down today and follow the procedure you described, which seems to split the difference and is probably wetter than I've ran them.

May use the TW25 again, or some CLP I have instead. I typically use something like Hoppes to clean with, but am always diligent about cleaning all of it off before applying lube.

I'll likely go to the range again tomorrow, and it will be the same cold car, pistol, and ammo into a warm range scenario. We'll see what happens. All of last winter's shooting involved a room temp pistol being fired outside, so this recent scenario was new my 3913.

Appreciate as always your input.
 
Maybe you want to consider breaking down the gun when you get to the range and wiping the rails down and relubing to make sure there is no condensation in there.

Bob
 
I don't run the 3rd gen 9/.40's necessarily "wet" (not like SIG's are described as "wet guns" in their armorer class), but if I break down someone's pistol, I expect to see some shiny oil residue visible on their frame rail & barrel surfaces where you see friction marks. Or signs of grease visible on the bearing surfaces. Not dry, carbon-caked rails ... or even dry/clean rails.

FWIW, one of the old sayings that makes its rounds in training is that a dirty/wet gun generally tends to run better & longer than a clean/dry gun. ;) Clean & lubed? Best of all. (Yes, some of the newer plastic guns, with short rail tabs, can run very well with minimal lube. The steel tabs are small bearing surfaces for frame rails running against the longer slide rails.)

(I run the 3rd gen .45's a bit wetter, but that's because they have longer, continuous rails, like 1911's & SIG metal-framed pistols.)

I shoot at an outdoor LE range, and we shoot in any & all weather. I've drained rain water out of mags I was loading while standing in heavy rain (and the ammo was wet, being removed from an outside rain coat pocket that was getting wet from pounding rain). Water's not a lubricant when it comes to guns, though. (A coolant, of sorts, maybe. ;) )
 
Last edited:
If you want to isolate the potential cold lubrication problem, don't change anything but the temperature of the gun and see if it runs. It ran for you before with the same lube regimen. Isolate that first.

On another front, are your chamber and extractor clean? Try a plunk test with the rounds. Is the extractor hook intact?
 
Update: Pistol worked fine this afternoon. No bobbles whatsoever. Used the same TW25b as before, but followed Fastbolt's suggested technique. Although I wouldn't call the gun "wet", I was probably more generous than I usually am.

Did break it down before firing to check for any condensation, but there wasn't any that I could see. Used same ammo as before.

I'll advise if the issue crops up again in future sessions this winter.

Thanks again everyone for the suggestions.
 
Oil = Wet
Grease = Greasy ;)

Glad it worked.

Remember the Brylcreem hair pomade (hair grease) for men back in the late 50's? Their jingle was "Brylcreem — A Little Dab'll Do Ya!".

Well, when it comes to talking about a "little dab of grease" for gun lubrication, not everyone thinks of a "little dab" quite the same way. ;)

Kind of like when I tell someone to apply a rain drop-sized drop of oil, and I see everything from a fly-speck to a spoon-sized splat of oil applied to guns. :eek:

Glad it's back to normal.
 
Fastbolt, what is a better lube for 3rd gen Smiths? Grease or Break Free CLP?

Parts that slide against each other = grease. (Especially the aluminum frames)


Parts that rotate = oil
 
Oil = Wet
Grease = Greasy ;)

Glad it worked.

Remember the Brylcreem hair pomade (hair grease) for men back in the late 50's? Their jingle was "Brylcreem — A Little Dab'll Do Ya!".

Well, when it comes to talking about a "little dab of grease" for gun lubrication, not everyone thinks of a "little dab" quite the same way. ;)

Kind of like when I tell someone to apply a rain drop-sized drop of oil, and I see everything from a fly-speck to a spoon-sized splat of oil applied to guns. :eek:

Glad it's back to normal.



Yup


And parts with shearing forces will flip excess grease off anyways.
 
Oil = Wet
Grease = Greasy ;)

Glad it worked.

Remember the Brylcreem hair pomade (hair grease) for men back in the late 50's? Their jingle was "Brylcreem — A Little Dab'll Do Ya!".

Well, when it comes to talking about a "little dab of grease" for gun lubrication, not everyone thinks of a "little dab" quite the same way. ;)

Kind of like when I tell someone to apply a rain drop-sized drop of oil, and I see everything from a fly-speck to a spoon-sized splat of oil applied to guns. :eek:

Glad it's back to normal.

I remember!

Now my AR, I run wet. My shooting glasses sometimes have to wiped off after the first mag.
 
Back
Top