Help me identify this Luger -

[45Wheelgun]

I have in my possession a Luger which was brought to me by a dear friend who knows less than I do about Lugers. I am calling on our forum experts to get some help here.

First off it looks way to nice to not be a refinish. So unless someone with more knowledge tells me otherwise I assume it is a refinished gun. Having said that, the edges and markings are all sharp and clear and I can find no evidence of a reblue. The "straw" colored parts are also "to good" in my opinion.

The gun doesn't appear to have all the markings of other Lugers I have found on the net. The barrel and frame share a serial number. The magazine has a non matching number which appears to be over stamped another non matching number. All the other parts except the take down lever are marked with the number "26", including the grips. There are no markings on the right side of the gun. There are several small markings under the grip which I did not photograph.

There are various proof marks and I will show photos of them. There are not as many parts serial numbered as guns I see pictures on the net. Also the serial number is in the 51 thousands without an Alpha character in the number.

So here are the pictures - What do I have?

 

[MKT]

I can't tell you much as I really don't know Lugers that well. What I believe you have is an arsenal rework (maybe refinish). All parts should have a 38 stamped on them, the last two of the serial. The parts marked 26 came from a different gun. Not an untouched sample but not bad.

I'm sure the Luger experts will dial it in further.

 

[V-35]

On your Luger, The Crown over B with The Crown over U is German Commercial Proofs On Commercial Luger Frames, 1900 thru 1908

The crowns over each letter B U G (aka BUG proof) with 118,35 is German Barrel proofs for early 9mm Commercial Barrels.

The barrel & Frame s/n is pre WWI commercial.

The s/42 toggle & side plate is definately WWII or late pre WWII Mauser as is the magizine (alum. base)

i.e. , It's a parts gun.......... But a nice parts gun

I wish I could say that this is from my memory, but...... it is info. from "Lugers at Random" by Charles Kenyon Jr.

Hope this helps (If it's wrong, don't blame me, blame C K Jr.



Art

 

[Texas Star]

Isn't there normally a date or coded date over the chamber?

I agree that this looks like a "parts gun." May have come in from Russia. I understand that many were imported here a few years ago, battlefield captures. Some were arsenal refinished.

I doubt that it is particularly collectible, but some of these work okay. Even with new springs, I wouldn't use it as a primary defense gun, but it provides nostalgic and historic value.

If that barrel really came off a 1908 gun, that was first year production for the P-'08. I'd rather have a later all-Mauser piece, but this gun is what it is.

 

[jaykellogg]

In the '30s before the second war Germany was prohibited from making weapons so they used the S/42 code and a alphameric code for the date. This Luger probably had the toggle swapped with a later gun, but the barrel and upper receiver are (probably) original to the gun.

It appears to be a rather nice parts gun.

 

[02-fatboy]

I really love to see old guns like this. To bad your friend didn't know more about its history. I guess its cool that some of the markings can tell a little bit about the guns history. Old guns like this truly fascinate me. Fun to look at, fun to shoot when you can, and fun to wonder about where they came from and what they have been through.

 

[2152hq]

I agree w/ V-35.
A commercial offering.
Made by DWM.
The serial numbers did not have the letter suffix that the military contracts had assigned to them.

Does the pistol have a toggle 'hold open' after the last shot is fired?
..If so is there a small pin with a repair proof mark on the right side of the frame just below the rail behind the trigger..


1908 was the year the German Army adopted the Luger (P-08)
But that 1908 year is also defined by collectors as a Model year change for Lugers in general including the commercial sold pistols.

Commercial pistols will generally not have any receiver ring marks.
The magazine here is a WW2 magazine. It was renumbered somewhere along the line for an entirely different pistol. The small '+' marking means it was originally the spare magazine meant to be carried in the holster mag pouch.
The TD latch is mismatched.

The side plate on commercial pistols is numbered on the outside but on the bottom edge. Turn the assembled pistol upsidedown to read it.
Grips are numbered on the inside.
The matching extractor here would be 'straw' colored as the trigger, TD latch, safety, ejector are.
The toggle assembly is Nazi era Mauser made.
The extractor during that era was blued along with those other parts.

Yes a parts gun,,but a very nice one.

One of my favorite shooter Lugers is a mismatched Commercial (Upper mismatched to lower).
No where near as nice as this one though.

 

[wbraswell]

As someone who doesn't know spit about Lugers, what would a value range for a nice shooter parts gun be?

 

[45Wheelgun]

Does the pistol have a toggle 'hold open' after the last shot is fired?
..If so is there a small pin with a repair proof mark on the right side of the frame just below the rail behind the trigger..

Why yes it does. I thought the repair mark was just a blemish, but with a closer look it appears to be an "R" or maybe a "P" with a crown?

Thanks so much for the insight. I wondered how this had a hold open when I had read that was a later addition. Interestingly it is numbered to the gun.

It should preform well as a shooter, the bore is shiny and bright. Looks brand new. Since it lacks collectors value I look forward to shooting it. I have about a thousand rounds of 9mm just looking to be burned up.

Now all I need is to find the period correct toggle train with serial number 38 on it. Shouldn't be hard at all...

 

[2152hq]

The hold-open feature was not in the original Luger 1908 pistol design.
The German Army requested that the hold-open be added.

Pistols already in service (both personally purchased Lugers,,they would have been the Commercial Model pistols such as this,,and those already issued ) were collected on a very systematic basis and returned for the hold-open to be added to the pistol.
(Bavarian Units did not turn in many of their privately owned pistols as a general rule having a distrust of the Berlin central Gov't.)

To do that conversion, the pivot pin is added and is marked with the repair proof 'Crown/R' (I believe most if not all of the work was done at Erfurt Arsenal).
The inside of the frame is milled to accept the holdopen itself along with it's small flat spring.
On production from that point on, the cuts and the pivot pin were part of regular production in both Commercial and Military pistols. The pin is inserted, milled and polished off flush with the frame and then the entire frame is rust blued. Makes the pin very hard to see.

Most early 1908 Lugers are listed as 'with hold open added' or 'original,,without hold open' when put up for sale.
Usually those w/o the hold-open sell for a premium.



Also,,that may be a Krieghoff mark on the left side of the front toggle,,the third from the last pic.

They had an 'eagle' trade mark stamp in the War looked much like the Nazi Eagle Waffenampt stamp.
The toggle is a Mauser mfg (S/42 code).
Krieghoff did get a contract for Lugers for the Luftwaffe (Goering). The guns were made up at the very end of Luger production.
There is differences in opinion wether Kreighoff actually made them or Mauser supplied the parts, or Kreighoff took over Mausers machinery as Mauser went to making P-38's,,,.
Confusing I know,,and I don't get in to that picky historical stuff usually (ever!). I just saw the 'eagle' stamp and it looked like a Krieghoff mark to me. That in itself has some status among Luger buffs.

Then again it may not be. I got away from these things because of such arguments & so many experts unwilling to even listen to a new theory.

Not even the Krieghoff family will (or would) talk about it.
I worked with a gunsmith in the 70's&80's that was heavily into competition shotguns. He had a repair contract with Krieghoff and got to know Dieter Krieghoff quite well.
The gunsmith/shop owner was also a Luger buff and after establishing more than just a working relationship with Mr Keighoff decided to inquire about the companys involvement in Luger production during WW2.

That question brought about a very long pause and a simple response that neither he nor anyone with the company was interested in visiting that part of the past.

It was never brought up again and I figured the story was never to be told as least by the Krieghoff family.
I got my interest in Luger pistols from that gunsmith,,but never developed a like for modern competition shotguns,,,

 

[MKT]

Told you the experts would be along shortly.

I believed an arsenal job as most of the misnumbered parts had the same number. An assumption on my part. On a second view of the markings, a few do appear cyrillic.

Always learning.

 

[Deacon KC]

Wolff makes new springs for it and I shoot my 1915 regularly with Winchester White Box FMJ. Enjoy it and you will find out that the only two other guns on the range that draw as much attention are a C96 Broomhandle and a Tommygun!