Ok this may be a little lengthy but I am having trouble understanding. I am working with a S&W 686 357 magnum with a 6" barrel. Components used: Brass: Winchester; Primer: CCI small pistol magnum; Powder: H110; Bullet: Speer 158gr deep curl. Hodgdons list start load 15.0 to 16.7 max w/ 158 HDY XTP. I used this data when doing some testing (chrony results at 10'; all FPS results a 7 shot average)15.0=1092fps, 15.5=1124fps, and 16.0=1148 fps. I was going to continue testing at 16.2 gr and finally stop at 16.5 gr, however, I looked at a speer reloading manual and it listed a max charge of 15.5gr. 16.0gr showed no signs of overpressure at all and recoil was as expected. I figured speer bullet must be longer and thereby reduce case capacity and that would be why the load is this way. 158 gr HDY XTP was .665" in length and speer was .635" in length giving increased case capacity. So why in the world would the max charge be 15.5 gr in the speer manual. Furthermore how in the hell did speer obtain a muzzle velocity of 1235 fps out of a 4" barrel with their factory offering of the 158gr speer gold dot. Should I stop testing and drop back to 15.5 gr? Some say the new speer manual's are written by lawyers and show weak loads. Furthermore, what should be done with loading when on the H110 bottle it says 158 grain bullet max charge is 16.7 grains and load should not be reduced more than 3% which is 16.2 grains?
Help me to figure out this 357 Magnum load problem
- Thread starter mbyoung72
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I have never used hodgdon or win. 296 in my magmum, but......
I know that a MAXIMUM load of w231 at 8.1grs with a win 125 SJHP ,OAL 1.59 and heavy crimp in my 6" mod 686 is said to be near a factory load but my chrony spits out only..........
1245 fps. A factory load is 1450fps +/- .
Maybe others can chime in and say if those maximum loads can produce factory velositys for you in a 6".
I can get 1260fps with a max load of BlueDot with my 6" with a 158 xtp.
good luck
I know that a MAXIMUM load of w231 at 8.1grs with a win 125 SJHP ,OAL 1.59 and heavy crimp in my 6" mod 686 is said to be near a factory load but my chrony spits out only..........
1245 fps. A factory load is 1450fps +/- .
Maybe others can chime in and say if those maximum loads can produce factory velositys for you in a 6".
I can get 1260fps with a max load of BlueDot with my 6" with a 158 xtp.
good luck
Hi:
I use Unique or 2400 for .357 magnum and 158 grain bullets.
I used H-110 for .44 Magnum in the distant past, but not anything else.
I use Unique or 2400 for .357 magnum and 158 grain bullets.
I used H-110 for .44 Magnum in the distant past, but not anything else.
This is the stuff that makes reloading fun...I've learned to check 2 or 3 manuals to make sure the data jibes before buying components.If your warmest loads were extracting easily,they are probably fine,but I'm just another Internet expert.
Welcome to reloading. Conflicting information abounds.
1. Your velocities are at 10 feet; Speer's are at the muzzle for their factory load which you have no idea what powder it uses.
2. Everybody's manuals are written by lawyers now.
3. Cannelure location, not OAL of bullet is what determines case volume.
4. If you want to be absolutely safe, use the data from Speer. It is for the bullet you are using. Nobody else's info is; certainly not what's on the powder bottle.
5. You might want to try a powder that's a little more forgiving, such as 2400 or AA9. Either will give you plenty of velocity with a lot less of the confusion and ambiguity of H110/WW296.
1. Your velocities are at 10 feet; Speer's are at the muzzle for their factory load which you have no idea what powder it uses.
2. Everybody's manuals are written by lawyers now.
3. Cannelure location, not OAL of bullet is what determines case volume.
4. If you want to be absolutely safe, use the data from Speer. It is for the bullet you are using. Nobody else's info is; certainly not what's on the powder bottle.
5. You might want to try a powder that's a little more forgiving, such as 2400 or AA9. Either will give you plenty of velocity with a lot less of the confusion and ambiguity of H110/WW296.
They are two different tests at different times and different lots of powders using two different BULLETS. So everything will not be the same.
They are both valid. If you are using the Speer GD bullet I would use the Speer data (manual)
If using the XTP use the Hornady data. (start of 12.7 with a Max of 15.6) Using a 8" Python
But wait, it is much different than the Hodgdon Data!
If it was me using the Speer bullet. I would use their data since it is exactly what they tested.
We recently had a discussion on this 3% reduction of H110/W 296 and some will only go by the powder manufacturers which I also normally trust but I also trust Hornady and Speer and they have some much lower reductions.
They are both valid. If you are using the Speer GD bullet I would use the Speer data (manual)
If using the XTP use the Hornady data. (start of 12.7 with a Max of 15.6) Using a 8" Python
But wait, it is much different than the Hodgdon Data!
If it was me using the Speer bullet. I would use their data since it is exactly what they tested.
We recently had a discussion on this 3% reduction of H110/W 296 and some will only go by the powder manufacturers which I also normally trust but I also trust Hornady and Speer and they have some much lower reductions.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
You will find differences in load data because of type of test equipment, different bullets, different primers, longer or shorter barrels used in the test, powder lots and probably a few other reasons too.
While it's true Hodgdon lists a Max charge of 16.7gr W296/H110 w/158gr XTP their velocity is achieved by shooting through a 10" test barrel and they use a Winchester SPM primer. The OAL Hodgdon used is 1.580". Velocity is reported @ 1591 fps.
Hornady #9 using the same XTP bullet lists a Max charge of H110 of 15.6gr and a Max charge of W296 of 16.0gr. I have no idea why they are still listing different charge weights but they do. Both charges are supposed to be generating 1250 fps from an 8" barrel using the same primer as Hodgdon. The OAL is 1.590".
Lyman #49 lists a Max charge of 17.0gr H110 under a Hornady JSP bullet. Velocity is reported at only 1309 fps even though they use 17.0gr powder but the barrel is only 4", the OAL is 1.590" and they use a CCI 550 SPM primer.
As you see some of the data makes no sense but because of all the variations I listed above that's what you get. Even if your barrel is the same length you probably won't achieve the velocity they list because they use a test barrel and not a real revolver with a barrel/cylinder gap for gasses to escape.
While it's true Hodgdon lists a Max charge of 16.7gr W296/H110 w/158gr XTP their velocity is achieved by shooting through a 10" test barrel and they use a Winchester SPM primer. The OAL Hodgdon used is 1.580". Velocity is reported @ 1591 fps.
Hornady #9 using the same XTP bullet lists a Max charge of H110 of 15.6gr and a Max charge of W296 of 16.0gr. I have no idea why they are still listing different charge weights but they do. Both charges are supposed to be generating 1250 fps from an 8" barrel using the same primer as Hodgdon. The OAL is 1.590".
Lyman #49 lists a Max charge of 17.0gr H110 under a Hornady JSP bullet. Velocity is reported at only 1309 fps even though they use 17.0gr powder but the barrel is only 4", the OAL is 1.590" and they use a CCI 550 SPM primer.
As you see some of the data makes no sense but because of all the variations I listed above that's what you get. Even if your barrel is the same length you probably won't achieve the velocity they list because they use a test barrel and not a real revolver with a barrel/cylinder gap for gasses to escape.
First and foremost thank you all for the responses. Once again your answers seem to bring on more questions 
. I have a question about cannelure location. If bullet length .665" on hornady and .635" for speer and COAL was 1.590 in both then the speer bullet should have .030" more room for powder thereby increasing case capacity. Cannelure is from crimp ring to base of bullet correct so bullet length would be the major determinate of case capacity would it not? Shorter overall bullet would take up less space when seated to the same depth. I'm not so much worried about getting the maximum velocity, more so just obtaining a safe and good performing loading on par with factory offerings. I'm am also fully aware factory loadings are not correct in there velocities none more so than hornady. In my experience whatever hornady says subtract 100 to 200 FPS and that's what it will chronograph.
. I have a question about cannelure location. If bullet length .665" on hornady and .635" for speer and COAL was 1.590 in both then the speer bullet should have .030" more room for powder thereby increasing case capacity. Cannelure is from crimp ring to base of bullet correct so bullet length would be the major determinate of case capacity would it not? Shorter overall bullet would take up less space when seated to the same depth. I'm not so much worried about getting the maximum velocity, more so just obtaining a safe and good performing loading on par with factory offerings. I'm am also fully aware factory loadings are not correct in there velocities none more so than hornady. In my experience whatever hornady says subtract 100 to 200 FPS and that's what it will chronograph.cp1969 gave you some excellent advice as usual.
It sounds like you’re on top of everything & have dotted your eyes & crossed your tees. I take my hat off to you for your diligence in finding both loading data from the powder & bullet makers.
Yes the important length to reloading is the length from the base of the bullet to the cannelure/crimp groove. The amount of bullet seated in the case will control how much pressure the same powder charge/weight will generate. The deeper the bullet is seated, the less case capacity =’s more pressure.
The finished cartridge’s oal is for fit & function in revolver cylinders & proper feeding in semi-autos.
For what it’s worth, I never paid attention to what any of the publicized velocities were from the different powder/bullet/ammo mfger’s. Things like unburnt powder, erratic chronograph sd’s, accuracy, bullet performance, extraction/ejection patterns of the empty cases & leading/bbl fouling are the tell tale signs of a load that I look for & pay attention to.
It sounds like you’re on top of everything & have dotted your eyes & crossed your tees. I take my hat off to you for your diligence in finding both loading data from the powder & bullet makers.
Yes the important length to reloading is the length from the base of the bullet to the cannelure/crimp groove. The amount of bullet seated in the case will control how much pressure the same powder charge/weight will generate. The deeper the bullet is seated, the less case capacity =’s more pressure.
The finished cartridge’s oal is for fit & function in revolver cylinders & proper feeding in semi-autos.
For what it’s worth, I never paid attention to what any of the publicized velocities were from the different powder/bullet/ammo mfger’s. Things like unburnt powder, erratic chronograph sd’s, accuracy, bullet performance, extraction/ejection patterns of the empty cases & leading/bbl fouling are the tell tale signs of a load that I look for & pay attention to.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I know folks frown on H110/W296 because of this reduction issue. Personally, I have no worries about it BECAUSE when I grab that can of powder, I am looking for one type of load and one type of load, period. One that makes the rafters shake and the world light up. If I want a reduced load, I use a different powder, simple as that.
Personally, with the M686 that you have, you are not going to blow that thing up if you fill a case with H110/W296 and can still get a bullet seated. It just isn't going to happen. Do the same with a fast pistol powder and that statement is going to read some kind of different.
This is just me, and, your mileage may vary as well as your opinion, I'm not claiming you are wrong and I am right, I am just telling you what I do, I'm using Hodgdon's data to start with. I have never found it to be drastically wrong at the maximum end of that data, never. Now, that doesn't mean I will not experiment after that but, to start with, until I learn a powder and or my combination with it, that is what I do.
Here is what I am pretty sure of, none of the major component companies today, whether bullet, primer, powder or whatever else there is out there, are going to knowingly put themselves in a place where what they post as safe is going to be dangerous in most firearms. If they put something out that could be used in inferior firearms, there is enough legaleese to cover that in their data........
Again, your mileage may vary..........Have fun, be safe.................
Personally, with the M686 that you have, you are not going to blow that thing up if you fill a case with H110/W296 and can still get a bullet seated. It just isn't going to happen. Do the same with a fast pistol powder and that statement is going to read some kind of different.
This is just me, and, your mileage may vary as well as your opinion, I'm not claiming you are wrong and I am right, I am just telling you what I do, I'm using Hodgdon's data to start with. I have never found it to be drastically wrong at the maximum end of that data, never. Now, that doesn't mean I will not experiment after that but, to start with, until I learn a powder and or my combination with it, that is what I do.
Here is what I am pretty sure of, none of the major component companies today, whether bullet, primer, powder or whatever else there is out there, are going to knowingly put themselves in a place where what they post as safe is going to be dangerous in most firearms. If they put something out that could be used in inferior firearms, there is enough legaleese to cover that in their data........
Again, your mileage may vary..........Have fun, be safe.................
Buckey08
Member
Had the same problem a while back using the same 6" 686, H110 just wasn't getting-er-done. Made the switch to Alliant 300M-P and 158gr XTP HP and now I have speed and great accuracy.
When you can match all components from one reloading manual, why not use the suggests charges working them from low to high watching for signs of pressure and settling on the most accurate in your particular gun. After all isn't shot placement what you are after?
AzRedleg
Member
It seems the MVs you are achieving are normal and very similar to the velocities I achieve with similar loads. The 16.7 grain max charge Hodgdons recommends has been safe in a variety of revolvers (S&Ws, Colt’s, Ruger, Dan Wesson) and rifles (Marlin) I have fired it in with a variety of 158 grain bullets from lead to jacketed. For what it is worth the barrel length and type of firearm makes a big difference in achieved velocity. My rifle clocks 1750ish FPS with 158 grain bullets and those not fired with a maximum charge. The maximum charge has never resulted in the best accuracy in any of my firearms. A few tenths off maximum seemed the best, but you will have to experiment, which of course is the fun of all this. My best pistol load averaged 4 inches at 100 meters (scoped) and for my rifle about 1.75 (scoped). This was plenty good for my purposes. You will find if you fill a .357 case with 16.7 grains of H110 there is barely enough room to fit the bullet. Pretty much no room left! I have found the following link interesting, especially the velocities they achieved with real world firearms. It depicts some interesting velocity differences between manufacturers and firearms types as well as barrel length. BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
AzRedleg,
That is some good info and I will pass this along too.
Brian Pearce did an article a while back where he loaded Lil' Gun in a Marlin 1984 with Ballard rifling and went to work it out.
He was using the 158gr XTP bullet and had some fascinating results. One being, a 158gr XTP clocking out of that carbine at just over 2000fps! The load is above book load by 1gr.
I have to say this too, after that article, I loaded some of those loads and went to the range. Now, I do not use Lil' Gun in revolvers, but, the carbine? Oh, yeah. I got the same results he did with the load he posted and had some pretty cool results too.
Here is a video of shooting an Osage Orange (Hedge Apple) with the said load @ 50 yards. If that don't get it done in the deer woods, you are in the wrong deer woods!
(Click on it to watch)
That is some good info and I will pass this along too.
Brian Pearce did an article a while back where he loaded Lil' Gun in a Marlin 1984 with Ballard rifling and went to work it out.
He was using the 158gr XTP bullet and had some fascinating results. One being, a 158gr XTP clocking out of that carbine at just over 2000fps! The load is above book load by 1gr.
I have to say this too, after that article, I loaded some of those loads and went to the range. Now, I do not use Lil' Gun in revolvers, but, the carbine? Oh, yeah. I got the same results he did with the load he posted and had some pretty cool results too.
Here is a video of shooting an Osage Orange (Hedge Apple) with the said load @ 50 yards. If that don't get it done in the deer woods, you are in the wrong deer woods!
(Click on it to watch)
snowman
Member
Mr. Sackett,
I clicked on your video and it just returned the picture in a new window. Is the problem on my end or yours?
Andy
I clicked on your video and it just returned the picture in a new window. Is the problem on my end or yours?
Andy
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Snowman, sorry.....Works for me.
Try this though:
Hedgeapple357Mag.mp4 video by Sackettwannabe | Photobucket
Try this though:
Hedgeapple357Mag.mp4 video by Sackettwannabe | Photobucket
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Andy, It MAY be because it is an MP4, not sure.
snowman
Member
The link worked -you just about vaporized that thing. I guess they have the expansion worked out pretty well on the XTP.
Andy
Andy
Cdog
Member
My experience with H110/W296 has been mostly with larger bores, but reducing away from max ain't something I've done.
When I started loading, my memory recalls many manuals recommended no reduction at all.
In my youth I usually started at max and worked up. After I got my first chronograph I soon learned of many combo's point of saturation.
I was loading .44 mag, .454 Casull, and 45 Colt from T/C's and Rugers. People accused me of using a cheater bar on my press to seat the bullets on a case full of W296. It wasn't too far from the truth.
Every firearm, barrel, chamber, etc has it's own characteristics that all interact. I've been surprised and questioned the chronograph's results in both directions.
W296/H110 just isn't a powder that I recommend reducing, nor worry too much about loading a bit up when the notion would strike. I don't recall a ruptured case or blown primer. Lot's of fire, recoil and muzzle blast though.
I seldom shoot anything with magnum loads now, so my consumption of W296 is pretty much nil. In my youth, it was my "go to" powder and I went a lot!
When I started loading, my memory recalls many manuals recommended no reduction at all.
In my youth I usually started at max and worked up. After I got my first chronograph I soon learned of many combo's point of saturation.
I was loading .44 mag, .454 Casull, and 45 Colt from T/C's and Rugers. People accused me of using a cheater bar on my press to seat the bullets on a case full of W296. It wasn't too far from the truth.
Every firearm, barrel, chamber, etc has it's own characteristics that all interact. I've been surprised and questioned the chronograph's results in both directions.
W296/H110 just isn't a powder that I recommend reducing, nor worry too much about loading a bit up when the notion would strike. I don't recall a ruptured case or blown primer. Lot's of fire, recoil and muzzle blast though.
I seldom shoot anything with magnum loads now, so my consumption of W296 is pretty much nil. In my youth, it was my "go to" powder and I went a lot!
AzRedleg
Member
AzRedleg,
That is some good info and I will pass this along too.
Brian Pearce did an article a while back where he loaded Lil' Gun in a Marlin 1984 with Ballard rifling and went to work it out.
He was using the 158gr XTP bullet and had some fascinating results. One being, a 158gr XTP clocking out of that carbine at just over 2000fps! The load is above book load by 1gr.
I have to say this too, after that article, I loaded some of those loads and went to the range. Now, I do not use Lil' Gun in revolvers, but, the carbine? Oh, yeah. I got the same results he did with the load he posted and had some pretty cool results too.
Here is a video of shooting an Osage Orange (Hedge Apple) with the said load @ 50 yards. If that don't get it done in the deer woods, you are in the wrong deer woods!
(Click on it to watch)
Skip,
I haven't experimented with ‘lil gun but I bet it would do nicely in a carbine and I don’t doubt 2,000 FPS is achievable.
